Grudge Match
July 19, 2023 1:56 AM Subscribe
The pitch here is simple: a bunch of grumpy old magicians made a big fuss about sexy little Uri Geller just because he claimed his party trick was real psychic powers, and now they’re either dead or friends with him, and isn’t that great? Because really, even if he DIDN’T have psychic powers, what’s the harm in helping people believe that there’s a little magic in the world? from Uri Geller is Still a Giant Fraud, Despite the Glowing NY Times Profile by Skepchick, who, along with the CFI, Greg Mayer, DJ Grothe and Mark Evanier (among others) are raking the NYT for its recent "lengthy – and progressively more maddening – hagiography of Uri Geller." [New York Times; ungated]
Uri Geller on Johnny Carson [1973]
Related: Uri Geller apologises to Pokémon TCG fans as Kadabra returns after 22 year lawsuit
James Randi, previously
Uri Geller on Johnny Carson [1973]
Related: Uri Geller apologises to Pokémon TCG fans as Kadabra returns after 22 year lawsuit
James Randi, previously
I agree with Rebecca on almost everything, and I definitely agree with her on this. Geller has always been a fraudster and that the Carson interview 50 years ago didn't absolutely bury him and his fraudster antics remains baffling to me.
Serious question : why do people continue to aggressively believe the literal unbelievable when - under even the slightest bit of scrutiny - what they're saying/doing completely falls apart?
I'm not trying to having a debate about cults or religious beliefs here, I'm only asking that when the "hey this guy can bend spoons with his mind!" guy was disproven on one of the most influential shows in the world 50 years ago, and has been proven as a fraud many times over since then is now somehow being redeemed by another fraudster fraud trying to also make money redeeming him - who is buying this story and why?
posted by revmitcz at 2:57 AM on July 19, 2023 [26 favorites]
Serious question : why do people continue to aggressively believe the literal unbelievable when - under even the slightest bit of scrutiny - what they're saying/doing completely falls apart?
I'm not trying to having a debate about cults or religious beliefs here, I'm only asking that when the "hey this guy can bend spoons with his mind!" guy was disproven on one of the most influential shows in the world 50 years ago, and has been proven as a fraud many times over since then is now somehow being redeemed by another fraudster fraud trying to also make money redeeming him - who is buying this story and why?
posted by revmitcz at 2:57 AM on July 19, 2023 [26 favorites]
“As an aside I find it interesting that back in the 90s when I was learning magic, we had to go to dusty old libraries to find ancient techniques in books from the ‘40s, so it actually makes a lot of sense that in 2023 kids have to visit a website that looks like it was made in the 90s.”
I laughed out loud when I read this and then I felt older than I have ever felt in my life.
posted by Kattullus at 3:30 AM on July 19, 2023 [39 favorites]
I laughed out loud when I read this and then I felt older than I have ever felt in my life.
posted by Kattullus at 3:30 AM on July 19, 2023 [39 favorites]
Sure he’s a fraud. But don’t frauds brighten our lives and give us hope? Aren’t the best of us, in many ways, frauds? Wasn’t Nelson Mandela, in his own way, a fraud very like Geller? Great frauds give us joy and do no harm apart from bankruptcy, death from cancer, and the replacement of science with dark superstition.
posted by Phanx at 3:50 AM on July 19, 2023 [54 favorites]
posted by Phanx at 3:50 AM on July 19, 2023 [54 favorites]
There isn't a direct line between having a mild crush on Uri Geller and the global resurgence of the right wing. Several other events had a good deal more influence. However, I suppose if you want to track it all back to the evils of spoon bending, it's a more interesting explanation than the usual.
posted by kingdead at 4:32 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 4:32 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
"A direct line" ≠ "the only line"
...and there IS a direct line between "thinks: if the credulous public can be bamboozled by bromides that appeal to their prejudices for entertainment - and the mainstream media and wider culture just goes along with it" and "hmmmmm.....what about instead of using it for entertainment....using it for power?"
posted by lalochezia at 4:42 AM on July 19, 2023 [37 favorites]
...and there IS a direct line between "thinks: if the credulous public can be bamboozled by bromides that appeal to their prejudices for entertainment - and the mainstream media and wider culture just goes along with it" and "hmmmmm.....what about instead of using it for entertainment....using it for power?"
posted by lalochezia at 4:42 AM on July 19, 2023 [37 favorites]
The point for me is how credulous the NYT writer is in the piece, and how much he elides the truth, especially about Randi and the Tonight Show appearance, in his gushing. Is there a link between Geller's hucksterism and our current culture of truthiness? I think there is, even if the causality suggested in that great Skepchick piece may not be quite so direct.
posted by mediareport at 4:46 AM on July 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 4:46 AM on July 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
Also, what lalochezia said.
posted by mediareport at 4:47 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 4:47 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wasn’t Nelson Mandela, in his own way, a fraud very like Geller?
Phanx at 10:50 AM
Wait - WTF are you saying?
Break it down for me please?
This does not in any way seem like it makes sense?
posted by Faintdreams at 4:50 AM on July 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
Pretty sure that Phanx was being sarcastic there.
And anyone who seriously thinks that there isn't a line between this sort of woo and the right wing, with whatever degree of directness, should, y'know, maybe read TFA.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:56 AM on July 19, 2023 [23 favorites]
And anyone who seriously thinks that there isn't a line between this sort of woo and the right wing, with whatever degree of directness, should, y'know, maybe read TFA.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:56 AM on July 19, 2023 [23 favorites]
I read this NYT article the other day and really did wonder if I should delete the app afterward.
posted by yamel at 4:57 AM on July 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by yamel at 4:57 AM on July 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
As a kid I loved reading about UFOs and ancient mysteries and all that. I ended up as a confirmed atheist, and someone who believes that nothing paranormal has ever happened in the history of humanity. When other people believed shit like this, I just thought “well whatever”. But in the current climate of disinformation and confusion, with its attendant fuckery of the world’s prospects, I now think that creating and promulgating unproven or incorrect information is one of the worst things a person can do in this world. So even something jokey like the flat earth people, or all the bonkers “well maybe” stuff in the UFO thread, contributes directly to QAnon, election denialism, deep state stuff from the left, all that. Just don’t. I don’t even post stuff on Facebook anymore without digging into it a bit and checking sources.
As an example, I have a very lefty friend who keeps sending me tweets about how China is crushing it on climate goals, while the US is doing terribly because capitalism. Which , though I am not a fan of capitalism, is just not right at all. His source is a predictably white young bespectacled nerd on Twitter (not a news source) who loves China … that’s it. That’s the source. So anyway … I can’t just let crystals and homeopathy be like I used to. Magic - not real.
posted by caviar2d2 at 5:03 AM on July 19, 2023 [40 favorites]
As an example, I have a very lefty friend who keeps sending me tweets about how China is crushing it on climate goals, while the US is doing terribly because capitalism. Which , though I am not a fan of capitalism, is just not right at all. His source is a predictably white young bespectacled nerd on Twitter (not a news source) who loves China … that’s it. That’s the source. So anyway … I can’t just let crystals and homeopathy be like I used to. Magic - not real.
posted by caviar2d2 at 5:03 AM on July 19, 2023 [40 favorites]
who is buying this story and why
I'm reminded of something I read years and years ago, and I can't remember who wrote it or the exact wording, but essentially it was: Get people to believe they're thinking, and you'll be showered with fame and wealth. Get them to actually think and they'll string you up from the nearest tree.
posted by heyitsgogi at 5:04 AM on July 19, 2023 [45 favorites]
I'm reminded of something I read years and years ago, and I can't remember who wrote it or the exact wording, but essentially it was: Get people to believe they're thinking, and you'll be showered with fame and wealth. Get them to actually think and they'll string you up from the nearest tree.
posted by heyitsgogi at 5:04 AM on July 19, 2023 [45 favorites]
"He wasn't smart and clever for being actually magical, he was smart and clever for making a career out of fooling chumps! By the way, it's time to renew your NYT subscription." The irony, it bleeds. I mime barfing so hard that my gall bladder actually comes out my nose for a moment.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:11 AM on July 19, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:11 AM on July 19, 2023 [17 favorites]
This just unlocked a memory. I remember watching that Carson clip and just laughing at the whole, "I don't feel particularly strong tonight."
uh huh, sure.
posted by Fizz at 5:26 AM on July 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
uh huh, sure.
posted by Fizz at 5:26 AM on July 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
Alright let's assume magic is real and there are people out there who know how to use it to manipulate reality. I like Joe Abercrombie's estimation of just how pleasant those people would be.
posted by East14thTaco at 5:28 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by East14thTaco at 5:28 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Beliefs have real consequences. It's better to believe in things that are real
Ok, now do religion. *ducks*
posted by 2N2222 at 5:47 AM on July 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
Ok, now do religion. *ducks*
posted by 2N2222 at 5:47 AM on July 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
Joe Abercrombie's estimation of just how pleasant those people would be.
Which is ...?
posted by ALeaflikeStructure at 5:48 AM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Which is ...?
posted by ALeaflikeStructure at 5:48 AM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I copy edit articles for one of the major trade magazines for magicians, and I have never seen a single magician mention him in one of their articles. And magicians love to name drop. If I had to guess, they don’t respect him and likely view him as a liability for the public perception of the magic community. Magicians take their art very, very seriously, and this is the type of transgression for which they will either outright ignore you or “soft excommunicate” you from the community.
posted by nightrecordings at 5:50 AM on July 19, 2023 [38 favorites]
posted by nightrecordings at 5:50 AM on July 19, 2023 [38 favorites]
Which is ...?
Not to spoil too much of The First Law, but not very.
posted by East14thTaco at 6:05 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Not to spoil too much of The First Law, but not very.
posted by East14thTaco at 6:05 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
There’s a direct line from Uri Geller to our current infection of frauds and snake oil salesmen, and fuck David Segal and the New York Times for whitewashing him.
I definitely see a line between credulously believing hacks like Geller and falling for Trump and QAnon. What’s next, NYT? A reappraisal of Erich von Däniken? It seems like every time I am tempted to subscribe, they publish some dreck that removes that temptation for a while.
posted by TedW at 6:07 AM on July 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
I definitely see a line between credulously believing hacks like Geller and falling for Trump and QAnon. What’s next, NYT? A reappraisal of Erich von Däniken? It seems like every time I am tempted to subscribe, they publish some dreck that removes that temptation for a while.
posted by TedW at 6:07 AM on July 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
I read this NYT article the other day and really did wonder if I should delete the app afterward.
Yes.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:27 AM on July 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yes.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:27 AM on July 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm reminded of Rindsberg's _The Gray Lady Blinked_ about the unreliability of the NYTimes. There's supporting Hitler, covering up the Holodomor, crack babies, weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, making up people ignoring Kitty Genovese getting murdered, and I think another thing or two, the NYTimes has a history of sloppy journalism.
I've been citing The Retrievals (stolen fentanyl leading to extreme pain during egg retrieval for IVF), but maybe I shouldn't.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:36 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
I've been citing The Retrievals (stolen fentanyl leading to extreme pain during egg retrieval for IVF), but maybe I shouldn't.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:36 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
>> Beliefs have real consequences. It's better to believe in things that are real
> Ok, now do religion. *ducks*
i'm a level 6 skeptic — the secret ceremony for promotion from level 5 to level 6 was probably the greatest experience of my life, and now that i'm in the upper division i've got a cool wand that looks like a cookie and i can shoot lazer beams from my fingertips — and i would encourage my fellow disbelievers to branch out from not believing in deities and start not believing in other things too.
for my part i've managed to get the set of things i believe in down to just one thing. it has no center or circumference, it fills all without leaving any gaps because absence is impossible, it's unchanging, unmoving, and has no features except for existence. everything else that might hypothetically exist is just a load of hooey, like, it's just a bunch of silly opinions.
n.b. i tried going farther and believing in zero things instead of one, but i ran into self-contradiction problems pretty quickly. maybe i'll try believing in zero things again if i get up to level 8.
ontological nihilism: there's no evidence for it, but isn't that a point in its favour?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:38 AM on July 19, 2023 [24 favorites]
> Ok, now do religion. *ducks*
i'm a level 6 skeptic — the secret ceremony for promotion from level 5 to level 6 was probably the greatest experience of my life, and now that i'm in the upper division i've got a cool wand that looks like a cookie and i can shoot lazer beams from my fingertips — and i would encourage my fellow disbelievers to branch out from not believing in deities and start not believing in other things too.
for my part i've managed to get the set of things i believe in down to just one thing. it has no center or circumference, it fills all without leaving any gaps because absence is impossible, it's unchanging, unmoving, and has no features except for existence. everything else that might hypothetically exist is just a load of hooey, like, it's just a bunch of silly opinions.
n.b. i tried going farther and believing in zero things instead of one, but i ran into self-contradiction problems pretty quickly. maybe i'll try believing in zero things again if i get up to level 8.
ontological nihilism: there's no evidence for it, but isn't that a point in its favour?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:38 AM on July 19, 2023 [24 favorites]
I did read the NYT article, and the one thing that I could find that was objectionable was that it was dismissive of the Amazing Randi, who was a weird and wonderful figure in his own right. There's even an admonition at the end that you shouldn't go any further than enjoying psychic spoon bending in your unsupported beliefs.
There's a slippery slope attitude toward media consumption that mirrors those Christian haunted houses where one exposure to the secular world is shown to lead to complete and irreversible sexual degradation. If you let yourself enjoy a silly trick by a tacky magician, the next thing you know you'll be running after your neighbor with a torch in your hand! Any other social factors are irrelevant.
posted by kingdead at 6:47 AM on July 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
There's a slippery slope attitude toward media consumption that mirrors those Christian haunted houses where one exposure to the secular world is shown to lead to complete and irreversible sexual degradation. If you let yourself enjoy a silly trick by a tacky magician, the next thing you know you'll be running after your neighbor with a torch in your hand! Any other social factors are irrelevant.
posted by kingdead at 6:47 AM on July 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
To me the most egregious part of that NYT piece was how it called out the spoon’s importance in The Matrix, and managed to reference a quote that wasn’t There is no spoon.
posted by Mchelly at 6:50 AM on July 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 6:50 AM on July 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm glad I'm not the only one who got increasingly more frustrated and perplexed by that bizarre piece in the times about Geller's new life as a tour guide to the museum of himself. It was written in such a slippery way that even after bringing up Randi it wasn't made clear that yes: Uri Geller was full of shit and always knew it. It felt more like well maybe he *can* bend spoons with his mind, even if other people can do it just by tricking you? Isn't he a nice and charming guy? I will give Geller that: he seems to have abnormal powers of charisma and the ability to find a receptive audience in big media in every generation. That is a kind of real magic I suppose.
posted by dis_integration at 6:52 AM on July 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 6:52 AM on July 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
If you let yourself enjoy a silly trick by a tacky magician, the next thing you know you'll be running after your neighbor with a torch in your hand!
There's a huge, huge, huge difference between Geller and most magicians: Most magicians suspend disbelief for the purpose of pulling off a neat trick. They're not actually trying to convince you that they have magic powers, only that they can fool you into thinking that they do. Geller on the other hand wants you accept that he really does have psychic powers. That's his whole schtick, and he has to always be 100% committed it because the moment he drops kayfabe he's just a really bad stage magician with tired old tricks.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:57 AM on July 19, 2023 [43 favorites]
There's a huge, huge, huge difference between Geller and most magicians: Most magicians suspend disbelief for the purpose of pulling off a neat trick. They're not actually trying to convince you that they have magic powers, only that they can fool you into thinking that they do. Geller on the other hand wants you accept that he really does have psychic powers. That's his whole schtick, and he has to always be 100% committed it because the moment he drops kayfabe he's just a really bad stage magician with tired old tricks.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:57 AM on July 19, 2023 [43 favorites]
you don't understand the real magic of uri geller - he's not bending spoons with his mind - he's bending minds with his spoon
and no, i don't believe him at all
posted by pyramid termite at 7:12 AM on July 19, 2023 [15 favorites]
and no, i don't believe him at all
posted by pyramid termite at 7:12 AM on July 19, 2023 [15 favorites]
Think about how many presumably intelligent, elite university-educated Republicans there are that will earnestly spread obvious lies about schools providing litter boxes or space lasers altering votes and how when confronted with evidence to the contrary they will enthusiastically double down on those lies instead of admitting that they were wrong.
That's the connection between the current right wing resurgence and Uri Geller.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:13 AM on July 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
That's the connection between the current right wing resurgence and Uri Geller.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:13 AM on July 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments removed. Please be sensitive to context and mindful of partaking in micro-aggressions, per the Content Guidelines and remain focused on the subject of the post.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:56 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:56 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I read this NYT article the other day and really did wonder if I should delete the app afterward.
Yes.
The black turtlenecks are gone. So is the voice. As the convicted Theranos founder awaits prison, she has adopted a new persona: devoted mother.
Elizabeth Holmes on track for early release from her 11-year prison sentence for Theranos scam
posted by Artw at 7:58 AM on July 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yes.
The black turtlenecks are gone. So is the voice. As the convicted Theranos founder awaits prison, she has adopted a new persona: devoted mother.
Elizabeth Holmes on track for early release from her 11-year prison sentence for Theranos scam
posted by Artw at 7:58 AM on July 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
just one thing
Est ergo est. Change my mind!
he's bending minds with his spoon
Silence! I'm psychoflexing.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:58 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Est ergo est. Change my mind!
he's bending minds with his spoon
Silence! I'm psychoflexing.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:58 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ok, now do religion. *ducks*
I wish I wouldn't have to, but the same worming in of truthiness to our society in the 1970's has metastasized to Evangelical Christianity in the form of preachers claiming they have the "gift" of prophecy, and that they have and can impart psychic powers to their followers.
posted by ocschwar at 8:08 AM on July 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
I wish I wouldn't have to, but the same worming in of truthiness to our society in the 1970's has metastasized to Evangelical Christianity in the form of preachers claiming they have the "gift" of prophecy, and that they have and can impart psychic powers to their followers.
posted by ocschwar at 8:08 AM on July 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
Get people to believe they're thinking, and you'll be showered with fame and wealth. Get them to actually think and they'll string you up from the nearest tree.
"If you make people think they’re thinking, they’ll love you: but if you really make them think, they’ll hate you"
—Don Marquis
(I like the Twain-ified version, though.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:15 AM on July 19, 2023 [25 favorites]
"If you make people think they’re thinking, they’ll love you: but if you really make them think, they’ll hate you"
—Don Marquis
(I like the Twain-ified version, though.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:15 AM on July 19, 2023 [25 favorites]
I think magicians--like Magic Castle level shit--are cool. Uri Geller was not cool.*
*also this feels weirdly dated? It's like when all that HR PufnStuf/Land of the Lost nostalgia happened in the 90s and I was born too late to get it despite it happening not too long before I was born. Like, I know who Geller is and what he was "famous" for but it feels like my parents' generation sort of thing.
posted by Kitteh at 8:22 AM on July 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
*also this feels weirdly dated? It's like when all that HR PufnStuf/Land of the Lost nostalgia happened in the 90s and I was born too late to get it despite it happening not too long before I was born. Like, I know who Geller is and what he was "famous" for but it feels like my parents' generation sort of thing.
posted by Kitteh at 8:22 AM on July 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
but yeah on the one hand uri geller is an evil fraud and the right wing is crawling with evil frauds and their marks but on the other hand speaking as if one has foolproof access to shared intersubjective reality convinces no one and is in practice primarily a method for coming off like an ass. in my experience that ass-coming-offage most often manifests as a cod scientism that treats science as truth rather than as a means for inquiry, and that never pauses to interrogate the actual conditions of scientific production. which is to say, it most often manifests as a deeply antiscientific pose fronting as reverence for science.
so like if you're speaking with certainty about the existence or nonexistence of things — aside, of course, from the one thing without center or circumference that fills all without gaps because absence is impossible and that neither moves nor changes and that has no feature other than existence — it's probably a good idea to at least internally ask yourself why you're so sure about that claim.
skeptics 👏 please 👏 be 👏 more 👏 skeptical
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:22 AM on July 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
so like if you're speaking with certainty about the existence or nonexistence of things — aside, of course, from the one thing without center or circumference that fills all without gaps because absence is impossible and that neither moves nor changes and that has no feature other than existence — it's probably a good idea to at least internally ask yourself why you're so sure about that claim.
skeptics 👏 please 👏 be 👏 more 👏 skeptical
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:22 AM on July 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
> Est ergo est. Change my mind!
it is what it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:28 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
it is what it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:28 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
The point for me is how credulous the NYT writer is in the piece, and how much he elides the truth
TBF, that's the house style.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:34 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
TBF, that's the house style.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:34 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
We need someone to spend an opinion column admitting that we need figures like James Randi and a resurgence of the skeptic community more than ever, not this. It’s not uncommon for these guys to bounce back up like inflatable clowns - it’s a dog bites man story. Peter Popoff is still working.
posted by Selena777 at 8:36 AM on July 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 8:36 AM on July 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
Mod note: ChatGPT comment and follow-ups removed, per the FAQ.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:41 AM on July 19, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:41 AM on July 19, 2023 [20 favorites]
Anyway, the connection between the right wing and a fake psychic spoon bender isn't just "FRAUDS are like other FRAUDS". Spoon benders are filling rooms teaching people who to access their psychic powers in woo spaces that are overwhelmingly politically pro-Trump. The psychics/woo to rightwing conspiracy theory pipeline is one inch long.
(what up ONRAC fans)
posted by wellifyouinsist at 8:43 AM on July 19, 2023 [28 favorites]
(what up ONRAC fans)
posted by wellifyouinsist at 8:43 AM on July 19, 2023 [28 favorites]
This being the NY Times, I suspect a certain writer had too much of an edible again and saw a spoon-bending video online. So we get this gushing piece about Geller, as a result.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:43 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:43 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Every week or three, lately, I'm exposed (usually on the blue) to something crappy that has shown up in NYT. This one's an oddball; usually its about trans people.
But, at the same time, I've been getting more and more of my weekly information from NYT. I listen to almost every single Ezra Klein podcast. I check the topic of The Daily daily and listen to it almost daily. I feel enriched by both those podcasts.
I, like so many lazy people, want an easy way to find important news and opinions; I don't want to rethink my whole news setup every month. NYT has been making that easier and easier for me, in ways I find important and fulfilling.
What do other lazy people do about this conundrum?
posted by gurple at 8:45 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
But, at the same time, I've been getting more and more of my weekly information from NYT. I listen to almost every single Ezra Klein podcast. I check the topic of The Daily daily and listen to it almost daily. I feel enriched by both those podcasts.
I, like so many lazy people, want an easy way to find important news and opinions; I don't want to rethink my whole news setup every month. NYT has been making that easier and easier for me, in ways I find important and fulfilling.
What do other lazy people do about this conundrum?
posted by gurple at 8:45 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
stop following news.
like i'm not just making a bombastic lowercase pronouncement here, i'm saying this for realsies cause most of the news is nonactionable froth that distracts from the deeper currents of our times by making you feel frantic and sad about the details of the day, which on most days are kind of just the trivia of the future. and on the days that contain more than just the future's trivia, you'll know about the news without having to seek it out.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:00 AM on July 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
like i'm not just making a bombastic lowercase pronouncement here, i'm saying this for realsies cause most of the news is nonactionable froth that distracts from the deeper currents of our times by making you feel frantic and sad about the details of the day, which on most days are kind of just the trivia of the future. and on the days that contain more than just the future's trivia, you'll know about the news without having to seek it out.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:00 AM on July 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
In soviet russia social media, news follows y🍪u
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:05 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:05 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ok, now do religion. *ducks*
Ducks got religion?!?
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:14 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ducks got religion?!?
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:14 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Duck religion is all quackery.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:16 AM on July 19, 2023 [59 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:16 AM on July 19, 2023 [59 favorites]
One of the best things about meeting Janes Randi in person was his fantastic close-up magic, which he used to make the point that everyone can be fooled, even when — especially when — they're quite sure they cannot be.
That proved to be a very helpful lesson he taught me, forty years ago.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:19 AM on July 19, 2023 [27 favorites]
That proved to be a very helpful lesson he taught me, forty years ago.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:19 AM on July 19, 2023 [27 favorites]
gurple, I use google news. At least there's a mixture of sources.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:21 AM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:21 AM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
So, at the risk of getting pilloried, I gotta say that this Metafilter discourse of "believing in woo leads right to fascism, we must all be skeptics [and atheists]" strikes me as misguided at best and deeply counterproductive at worst. I'm saying this as a queer, feminist witch who is surrounded by queer and feminist witches (yes, I live in Portland, Oregon) and like... I mean, I get it. I also feel more concerned about the stories of Atlantis and Bigfoot and Unknown Mysteries of the World that I happily devoured when I was a child and, throughout the wild times of the past few years, I have seen multiple people that I thought were resonant with me fall into rabbitholes of anti-vax nonsense and Qanon poison and manosphere bullshit and there is a clear link between certain types of conspirituality and just plain con artistry and neo-fascism
BUUUUTTTT
I'm worried that if we frame this as "religion versus reason" we'll be pushing more people towards the fascists. Like, you do you, please be as skeptical and atheistic as you want but also please understand and keep in mind that there are many varieties of religious and spiritual perspectives and people, the vast majority of whom are against fascism and con artistry. Please remember that certain religions are targeted by fascists and that we probably need a big, messy, diverse rainbow coalition to defeat the fascists, a coalition that includes skeptics, atheists, witches, Jewish and Muslim folks, truly loving Christians, fired up Buddhists, and even hippie dippie people who love crystals and Reiki and who organize cringey Facebook rituals to bind Trump from harming the world and let's not forget the indigenous peoples of the so-called United States, whose traditional spiritual practices were literally outlawed by the federal government and while we're on the subject, the way that some discourses of skepticism mirror the discourses of white supremacy and colonialism aka "rising out of primitive superstition into the airy realms of pure reason" oh and the way that fascism has many flavors of bullshit on offer, including some that appeal to reason and skepticism. Oh hello New Atheism, fancy meeting you here.
If you don't believe me, check out Starhawk or adrienne maree brown or Robin Wall Kimmerer.
posted by overglow at 9:27 AM on July 19, 2023 [44 favorites]
BUUUUTTTT
I'm worried that if we frame this as "religion versus reason" we'll be pushing more people towards the fascists. Like, you do you, please be as skeptical and atheistic as you want but also please understand and keep in mind that there are many varieties of religious and spiritual perspectives and people, the vast majority of whom are against fascism and con artistry. Please remember that certain religions are targeted by fascists and that we probably need a big, messy, diverse rainbow coalition to defeat the fascists, a coalition that includes skeptics, atheists, witches, Jewish and Muslim folks, truly loving Christians, fired up Buddhists, and even hippie dippie people who love crystals and Reiki and who organize cringey Facebook rituals to bind Trump from harming the world and let's not forget the indigenous peoples of the so-called United States, whose traditional spiritual practices were literally outlawed by the federal government and while we're on the subject, the way that some discourses of skepticism mirror the discourses of white supremacy and colonialism aka "rising out of primitive superstition into the airy realms of pure reason" oh and the way that fascism has many flavors of bullshit on offer, including some that appeal to reason and skepticism. Oh hello New Atheism, fancy meeting you here.
If you don't believe me, check out Starhawk or adrienne maree brown or Robin Wall Kimmerer.
posted by overglow at 9:27 AM on July 19, 2023 [44 favorites]
hey don't forget the parmenidean monists there are literally one of us
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:32 AM on July 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:32 AM on July 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
Ducks got religion?!?
That would explain why the lord's prayer includes a request for daily bread.
posted by dephlogisticated at 9:35 AM on July 19, 2023 [39 favorites]
That would explain why the lord's prayer includes a request for daily bread.
posted by dephlogisticated at 9:35 AM on July 19, 2023 [39 favorites]
The notion that fascists will fash because someone on Metafilter was mean to spoon-benders could use a citation or three. Calling out the gooping Gellars of the world and their unending stream of bullshit peddling won't change the inexorable gravitational pull of cults of irrationality.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:50 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:50 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
If Wiccans/Christians/indigenous people/anyone else in that big tent you've constructed, overglow, went around making claims of bending spoons? I feel like they'd get a lot of rightful scrutiny, even within their community. The claims Geller makes are so wild that they basically have to be criticized relentlessly, even more so because this is someone setting out to dupe people, rather than someone interpreting their beliefs.
But, again, most Christians would also probably look askance at someone hanging proof of god on their personal ability to bend a spoon.
posted by sagc at 10:08 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
But, again, most Christians would also probably look askance at someone hanging proof of god on their personal ability to bend a spoon.
posted by sagc at 10:08 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
(although it seems the main relevance to the thread is because of what I read to be a jokey comment? Nobody here seems to be framing it as "religion vs reason" apart from the "now do religion... *ducks*" comment?)
posted by sagc at 10:13 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 10:13 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
>Calling out the gooping Gellars of the world and their unending stream of bullshit peddling won't change the inexorable gravitational pull of cults of irrationality.
okay i'm being a little silly with the parmenides stuff but like legitimately for serious getting a pin on what counts as "rationality" is a real humdinger or whatever of a task and any solution to that question necessarily involves some variety of absurdity, and so you're left with the choice of what types of absurdity seem relatively less absurd to you.
you don't know what reason is! you don't know what rationality is! i promise you, you don't, and if you've got a smell-test sense, like, a "i know it when i see it" test for sorting reason from nonreason do keep in mind that others who believe things that are just not good ideas at all just totally silly boring things, even they think that they've got just as good and trustworthy a smell test.
this is not to say that the mystics and scam artists and bullshitters that the late 20th century penn and teller atheists railed against aren't anything but mystics and scam artists and bullshitters — and most offensively they're all terribly unimaginative bullshitters with no intellectual flair like people who wouldn't even recognize flair even if flair like jumped up and pinned itself to their suspenders — but also you gotta watch out the splash damage, some of which can hit potential allies and some of which comes straight back to you, and you've got to ground your claims in some amount of philosophy of science or you're gonna make some splash-damage-related blunders that pointlessly alienate decent people.
also and younger me would be pained to see current me saying this sometimes you just gotta not spoil peoples' fun. keep an eye on the stuff that might turn into something nasty and/or high control and think "wait is this person boring?" if they get into the corners of the silly stuff scene that are just, like, boring but other than that there's no particular reason to go around disputing other peoples' claims about the nature of this confusing and to be frank bad reality that we're dealing with. like even if the claims the other person is making are really really really boring, like the minions memes of the world of mystical discourse, that's not a reason to dispute them per se but more of a reason to go find someone more interesting to talk with.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:14 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
okay i'm being a little silly with the parmenides stuff but like legitimately for serious getting a pin on what counts as "rationality" is a real humdinger or whatever of a task and any solution to that question necessarily involves some variety of absurdity, and so you're left with the choice of what types of absurdity seem relatively less absurd to you.
you don't know what reason is! you don't know what rationality is! i promise you, you don't, and if you've got a smell-test sense, like, a "i know it when i see it" test for sorting reason from nonreason do keep in mind that others who believe things that are just not good ideas at all just totally silly boring things, even they think that they've got just as good and trustworthy a smell test.
this is not to say that the mystics and scam artists and bullshitters that the late 20th century penn and teller atheists railed against aren't anything but mystics and scam artists and bullshitters — and most offensively they're all terribly unimaginative bullshitters with no intellectual flair like people who wouldn't even recognize flair even if flair like jumped up and pinned itself to their suspenders — but also you gotta watch out the splash damage, some of which can hit potential allies and some of which comes straight back to you, and you've got to ground your claims in some amount of philosophy of science or you're gonna make some splash-damage-related blunders that pointlessly alienate decent people.
also and younger me would be pained to see current me saying this sometimes you just gotta not spoil peoples' fun. keep an eye on the stuff that might turn into something nasty and/or high control and think "wait is this person boring?" if they get into the corners of the silly stuff scene that are just, like, boring but other than that there's no particular reason to go around disputing other peoples' claims about the nature of this confusing and to be frank bad reality that we're dealing with. like even if the claims the other person is making are really really really boring, like the minions memes of the world of mystical discourse, that's not a reason to dispute them per se but more of a reason to go find someone more interesting to talk with.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:14 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm worried that if we frame this as "religion versus reason" we'll be pushing more people towards the fascists.
I think you're underestimating the power of belief.
I'm not going to completely abandon everything I believe in and embrace the very antithesis of my beliefs just because someone's being a jerk about rationalism and/or atheism, and I suspect most other people wouldn't either.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:14 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think you're underestimating the power of belief.
I'm not going to completely abandon everything I believe in and embrace the very antithesis of my beliefs just because someone's being a jerk about rationalism and/or atheism, and I suspect most other people wouldn't either.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:14 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
however i reserve the right to in the proper contexts shit on astrology, because fuck that noise we do not need to invent new ways to essentialize people and we do not need to make bullshit claims about the stars. leave the stars alone please. and the planets too. just like stay out of astronaut-only zones okay?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:16 AM on July 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:16 AM on July 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't think religion needs to be eradicated. People have clearly demonstrated that they can be awful shits without it.
I do think it's better if you try to believe in things that are real. Better for you, better for society, better for the species, better for life on the planet generally. Probably better for aliens too, wherever and whenever they are in the universe.
I absolutely do not stand for anyone dictating others' actions on the strictures of the dictator's religion.
I stand by my statement. You can believe what you want. You should try to believe only in real things, in my opinion.
posted by Scattercat at 10:17 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I do think it's better if you try to believe in things that are real. Better for you, better for society, better for the species, better for life on the planet generally. Probably better for aliens too, wherever and whenever they are in the universe.
I absolutely do not stand for anyone dictating others' actions on the strictures of the dictator's religion.
I stand by my statement. You can believe what you want. You should try to believe only in real things, in my opinion.
posted by Scattercat at 10:17 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
you don't know what reason is! you don't know what rationality is!
you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:22 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:22 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
spoil people's fun
Uri Gellar crosses the line from "fun" to "fraud." Stage magic is fun. Cults are not fun. Whizbang space adventures are fun. Millions of taxpayer dollars spent chasing little green men are not fun. Eating chicken soup for your cold is nice. Pharmacies stocked with inactive homeopathic "medicines" sold to gullible people in pain or risk of death is not nice.
This is why I think everyone should try to perceive reality accurately. Test beliefs. Acknowledge to yourself when your beliefs are not rational. You can still have chicken soup afterward.
posted by Scattercat at 10:23 AM on July 19, 2023 [20 favorites]
Uri Gellar crosses the line from "fun" to "fraud." Stage magic is fun. Cults are not fun. Whizbang space adventures are fun. Millions of taxpayer dollars spent chasing little green men are not fun. Eating chicken soup for your cold is nice. Pharmacies stocked with inactive homeopathic "medicines" sold to gullible people in pain or risk of death is not nice.
This is why I think everyone should try to perceive reality accurately. Test beliefs. Acknowledge to yourself when your beliefs are not rational. You can still have chicken soup afterward.
posted by Scattercat at 10:23 AM on July 19, 2023 [20 favorites]
Most religion actually walls off and isolates magic by putting it far in the past and into the indefinite future — the first and Second Comings, for example — or making it extremely rare and limited, such as the miracles attributed to saints.
Somewhat like what a healthy person's immune system does with tuberculosis germs.
But when it breaks out of that confinement, watch out.
posted by jamjam at 10:23 AM on July 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
Somewhat like what a healthy person's immune system does with tuberculosis germs.
But when it breaks out of that confinement, watch out.
posted by jamjam at 10:23 AM on July 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
> You should try to believe only in real things
wait are you saying i can't believe in complex things because if so gerolamo cardano and i have a bone to pick with you
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:24 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
wait are you saying i can't believe in complex things because if so gerolamo cardano and i have a bone to pick with you
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:24 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Metafilter: You can still have chicken soup afterward
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:27 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:27 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
i tried going farther and believing in zero things instead of one, but i ran into self-contradiction problems pretty quickly.
Trick there is noticing that the raw experience of existing doesn't stop when beliefs about it do.
Welcome to level 8. It's nice here.
I don't want to rethink my whole news setup every month. NYT has been making that easier and easier for me, in ways I find important and fulfilling.
What do other lazy people do about this conundrum?
Work around their paywall. The Bypass Paywalls Clean browser extension is available for both Firefox-based and Chrome-based browsers.
posted by flabdablet at 10:28 AM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Trick there is noticing that the raw experience of existing doesn't stop when beliefs about it do.
Welcome to level 8. It's nice here.
I don't want to rethink my whole news setup every month. NYT has been making that easier and easier for me, in ways I find important and fulfilling.
What do other lazy people do about this conundrum?
Work around their paywall. The Bypass Paywalls Clean browser extension is available for both Firefox-based and Chrome-based browsers.
posted by flabdablet at 10:28 AM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Uri Gellar crosses the line from "fun" to "fraud." Stage magic is fun. Cults are not fun.
Yes, to be really clear: Uri Gellar is not just a stage magician who never broke character. I've seen that take come up a few times in relation to this article (and because of it). Geller's schtick was to claim actually psi powers, and the ability to teach them to other people, and do fun things like cure cancer "if you did it right". His cohort is phone psychics and predatory mediums like John Edward, not dudes who do close up magic and wear top hats.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 10:31 AM on July 19, 2023 [31 favorites]
Yes, to be really clear: Uri Gellar is not just a stage magician who never broke character. I've seen that take come up a few times in relation to this article (and because of it). Geller's schtick was to claim actually psi powers, and the ability to teach them to other people, and do fun things like cure cancer "if you did it right". His cohort is phone psychics and predatory mediums like John Edward, not dudes who do close up magic and wear top hats.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 10:31 AM on July 19, 2023 [31 favorites]
I do think it's better if you try to believe in things that are real. Better for you, better for society, better for the species, better for life on the planet generally.
I think this could be true on large scales but when you're talking to individual people, I don't know, if someone is genuinely good to other people because of their religious values, that seems like a net win. I guess it's more what you do with it that's the issue, and what can be done with it in large enough population sizes.
Most religion actually walls off and isolates magic by putting it far in the past and into the indefinite future — the first and Second Comings, for example — or making it extremely rare and limited, such as the miracles attributed to saints.
That's one of the really peculiar things about that venn diagram overlap of the evangelical and woo communities you run into on the populist right, the acceptance of everyday magical and miraculous events and personal connection to the divine as just a matter of course. It's weird seeing Christianity turn into a vague spiritualism as a way to turn it into this amorphous thing where you don't have to think about hypocrisy or your own sins because you're special.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:34 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think this could be true on large scales but when you're talking to individual people, I don't know, if someone is genuinely good to other people because of their religious values, that seems like a net win. I guess it's more what you do with it that's the issue, and what can be done with it in large enough population sizes.
Most religion actually walls off and isolates magic by putting it far in the past and into the indefinite future — the first and Second Comings, for example — or making it extremely rare and limited, such as the miracles attributed to saints.
That's one of the really peculiar things about that venn diagram overlap of the evangelical and woo communities you run into on the populist right, the acceptance of everyday magical and miraculous events and personal connection to the divine as just a matter of course. It's weird seeing Christianity turn into a vague spiritualism as a way to turn it into this amorphous thing where you don't have to think about hypocrisy or your own sins because you're special.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:34 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
keep in mind that there are many varieties of religious and spiritual perspectives and people
And what they have in common is the notion that the solution to the challenges they want to take up is simply a sufficient exertion of rightly guided will. Add that that a willingness to set facts aside in favor of truthiness, and you can be sure that things will go very very wrong, gradually, and then quickly.
posted by ocschwar at 10:36 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
And what they have in common is the notion that the solution to the challenges they want to take up is simply a sufficient exertion of rightly guided will. Add that that a willingness to set facts aside in favor of truthiness, and you can be sure that things will go very very wrong, gradually, and then quickly.
posted by ocschwar at 10:36 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm on team Kreskin.
posted by ovvl at 10:37 AM on July 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 10:37 AM on July 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
like legitimately for serious getting a pin on what counts as "rationality" is a real humdinger or whatever of a task and any solution to that question necessarily involves some variety of absurdity, and so you're left with the choice of what types of absurdity seem relatively less absurd to you.I think the issue is not just rationality but empiricism. You can have one without the other.
I would have been more indulgent towards woo, but what if, for example, covid had been not 0.1% but something like 50% fatal? Would I have been ok with people saying, oh no, I want pure blood, the body has its own perfect mechanisms, I'm protected by Jesus, etc.? Then spreading it everywhere. We didn't need to force vaccinations, but in a worse pandemic I'd be ok with that.
It's not irrational that some unknown power could allow someone to bend spoons with their mind. But Geller couldn't do it under a controlled test.
posted by Schmucko at 10:40 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think this could be true on large scales but when you're talking to individual people
I think it's better even individually to strive to avoid misperception. There are plenty of perfectly reasonable arguments in favor of prosocial behavior that don't require supernatural mediation. If someone is behaving well only because of an inaccurate belief, then if they ever are confronted with evidence that breaks that belief, their behavior is likely to deteriorate.
If your kids are only good because they want toys from Santa and otherwise hate you and would disobey, you're in big trouble when they find the hidden boxes in the closet. Better if they have true reasons to want to please you and be a good family member, such as loving you and trusting you to provide for them. If those are true, then even when they find out Santa is just a story they will still want to be in your family.
posted by Scattercat at 10:46 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
> Trick there is noticing that the raw experience of existing doesn't stop when beliefs about it do.
see the problem with that is that you're ascribing a property other than existence to the one thing that exists. the subtle difference between existence as existing and the experience of existence existing means you're not talking about the one anymore.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:49 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
see the problem with that is that you're ascribing a property other than existence to the one thing that exists. the subtle difference between existence as existing and the experience of existence existing means you're not talking about the one anymore.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:49 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
We should ask Zathras. He knows how to identify the one.
posted by Scattercat at 10:50 AM on July 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Scattercat at 10:50 AM on July 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've found the greatest argument against solipsism to be that there seems to be more than one person here on Metafilter pushing that nonsense.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:59 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:59 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
look i'm just really a stickler i insist that people get the whole "one thing with no center or edge that fills all without gap being featureless and having no property except existence" thing correct since otherwise everything gets irrational pretty fast
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:59 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:59 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
spheres have circumference though. do you even float?
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:00 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:00 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
wait, what, who's a solipsist? solipsism is bad because it requires affirming the existence of a self
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:01 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:01 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
William Ellsworth Robinson versus basic gun maintenance and safety procedures?
Sly reference to the death of “Chung Ling Soo”, Robinson’s ripoff name of a working contemporary magician on the theatre circuit . The gimmick that redirected the percussive force from the barrel to the ramrod tube failed, propelling the bullet into his chest on stage. Gimmicking a live fire rifle is going to have its hazards, regardless.
posted by dr_dank at 11:01 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sly reference to the death of “Chung Ling Soo”, Robinson’s ripoff name of a working contemporary magician on the theatre circuit . The gimmick that redirected the percussive force from the barrel to the ramrod tube failed, propelling the bullet into his chest on stage. Gimmicking a live fire rifle is going to have its hazards, regardless.
posted by dr_dank at 11:01 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Then maybe be a little less condescending in assuming that people here who believe in science would be any more dismissive of witchcraft or hedge magic than Catholicism?
Or just be shitty for no reason, that works too.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:09 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Or just be shitty for no reason, that works too.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:09 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
:index_pointing_up: to kitteh's last comment
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:09 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:09 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
if you don't knock it off i'm going to turn this one thing without center or circumference that fills all without any gaps because absence is impossible around and drive right back home so if you want to go to disneyland today you better settle down and leave kitteh alone
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:11 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:11 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
you literally can't, MOM
I used caps and I'm not sorry
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:12 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I used caps and I'm not sorry
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:12 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
i'll do it, you better believe me i'll do it. you think i'm looking forward to standing in lines all day? i will turn this one undifferentiated unmoving thing around and get back on the freeway going the other way and drive all the way back to santa clarita.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:13 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:13 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was pretty much on Team Skeptic/New Atheist until the Dawkins Elevatorgate thing emboldened the right wingers to take off their masks (which, at the time, I naively didn't know were masks) kind of like Gamergate did with gamer/fandom/etc communities. (And I know skepticism and new atheism aren't the same thing but the Venn diagram overlap is pretty big, at least in my experience).
At some point after that, I realized I'd been on the path to becoming the "Oh really? Actually, let me explain to you what you are too naive to have grasped yourself" person and I'm so glad I didn't get completely there. And, since then, I've been a little more agnostic toward the claims that some of my friends have made about woo-ish topics, especially when their experiences have been powerful and have clearly changed them.
I've met a couple of people who have claimed to have been victims of alien abductions for instance. I'm not sure they'd experienced anything other than terrible episodes of sleep paralysis but I also can't claim I have some sort of absolute knowledge of what happened to them. At the very least, they've been shaped by the experience. For them it's very real and, for at least the time that I'm talking to them, I try to bracket the question of belief and just listen to their stories. Provided the aliens aren't telling them to storm the capitol and murder people.
The woo-to-far-right-insanity pipeline is well documented and people like Geller have been proven to be frauds and grifters (thank you Johnny Carson, asshole that you were, and of course The Amazing Randi) and have provided a lot of lubrication along that pipeline. Fuck those people and fuck the NYT for dangerously giving them a platform.
But I absolutely do not consider them in the category as my friend who gives actually insightful Tarot readings probably because she's a genuinely empathetic and emotionally intelligent person -- and I'm a little perturbed that the discourse around these topics here and elsewhere does tend to lump them together. If you do want to lump anyone together with charlatans like Geller, it should be folks like white nationalist evangelical preachers and secular manosphere influencers like Jordan Peterson and actual self-professed Nazis.
posted by treepour at 11:19 AM on July 19, 2023 [21 favorites]
At some point after that, I realized I'd been on the path to becoming the "Oh really? Actually, let me explain to you what you are too naive to have grasped yourself" person and I'm so glad I didn't get completely there. And, since then, I've been a little more agnostic toward the claims that some of my friends have made about woo-ish topics, especially when their experiences have been powerful and have clearly changed them.
I've met a couple of people who have claimed to have been victims of alien abductions for instance. I'm not sure they'd experienced anything other than terrible episodes of sleep paralysis but I also can't claim I have some sort of absolute knowledge of what happened to them. At the very least, they've been shaped by the experience. For them it's very real and, for at least the time that I'm talking to them, I try to bracket the question of belief and just listen to their stories. Provided the aliens aren't telling them to storm the capitol and murder people.
The woo-to-far-right-insanity pipeline is well documented and people like Geller have been proven to be frauds and grifters (thank you Johnny Carson, asshole that you were, and of course The Amazing Randi) and have provided a lot of lubrication along that pipeline. Fuck those people and fuck the NYT for dangerously giving them a platform.
But I absolutely do not consider them in the category as my friend who gives actually insightful Tarot readings probably because she's a genuinely empathetic and emotionally intelligent person -- and I'm a little perturbed that the discourse around these topics here and elsewhere does tend to lump them together. If you do want to lump anyone together with charlatans like Geller, it should be folks like white nationalist evangelical preachers and secular manosphere influencers like Jordan Peterson and actual self-professed Nazis.
posted by treepour at 11:19 AM on July 19, 2023 [21 favorites]
boo to how all of this went. i would gladly support the nuking of this whole subthread, despite how that would result in the loss of some really choice jokes about presocratics
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:21 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:21 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
this website never could find the heraclitus, tbh
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:21 AM on July 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:21 AM on July 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
> But I absolutely do not consider them in the category as my friend who gives actually insightful Tarot readings probably because she's a genuinely empathetic and emotionally intelligent person
i am a total fan of tarot in the right hands. the aleatoric element is what makes it work — the random order of the cards plus their kind of vague standard interpretations both provides story prompts and complicates the story in progress that's based on the previous cards.
this is a comparison that i hadn't thought of until right now, but there's pretty strong resonances between the role played by what cards come up in what order in tarot and the role played by dice rolls in dungeons and dragons.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:25 AM on July 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
i am a total fan of tarot in the right hands. the aleatoric element is what makes it work — the random order of the cards plus their kind of vague standard interpretations both provides story prompts and complicates the story in progress that's based on the previous cards.
this is a comparison that i hadn't thought of until right now, but there's pretty strong resonances between the role played by what cards come up in what order in tarot and the role played by dice rolls in dungeons and dragons.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:25 AM on July 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
> this website never could find the heraclitus, tbh
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:21 AM on July 19 [2 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
i resign, you win the thread. gg all.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:30 AM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:21 AM on July 19 [2 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
i resign, you win the thread. gg all.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:30 AM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was just thinking about Tarot and generative narratives like D&D. Lots of things can help people with focus or emotional support. I just prefer to know that they aren't being used for harm, self or otherwise.
Someone reading tarot cards in the morning to let them shape their thoughts is a neat meditation. If that person thinks that the cards are magic and then gets a very bad reading, they then experience terrible distress. (Or they get a good reading and that's the day a scammer hits them with an offer on LinkedIn or something.) The first person is fine; I worry about the second person.
posted by Scattercat at 11:30 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Someone reading tarot cards in the morning to let them shape their thoughts is a neat meditation. If that person thinks that the cards are magic and then gets a very bad reading, they then experience terrible distress. (Or they get a good reading and that's the day a scammer hits them with an offer on LinkedIn or something.) The first person is fine; I worry about the second person.
posted by Scattercat at 11:30 AM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Derail and its replies removed. Please go on.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:32 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 11:32 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
> The first person is fine; I worry about the second person.
eh, except in the case of people i'm v. v. close to my thought runs toward "remove beam in eye before mote in eye of other person."
like if i start ragging on people for being superstitious they might start giving me shit about the truly atrocious amount of weed i smoke, and then where are we? nowhere good, that's where.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:33 AM on July 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
eh, except in the case of people i'm v. v. close to my thought runs toward "remove beam in eye before mote in eye of other person."
like if i start ragging on people for being superstitious they might start giving me shit about the truly atrocious amount of weed i smoke, and then where are we? nowhere good, that's where.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:33 AM on July 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
Beliefs have real consequences. It's better to believe in things that are real
But everyone believes their beliefs are real. That's the nature of belief. Saying "believe in things that are real" totally misses the point- you might as well tell people "believe in things you believe". Better to suggest people regularly interrogate their beliefs, or promulgate the notion that beliefs should constantly shift and mutate with knowledge and experience.
(Wow, that really does not look like a real word now that I've typed it so many times.)
posted by oneirodynia at 11:34 AM on July 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
But everyone believes their beliefs are real. That's the nature of belief. Saying "believe in things that are real" totally misses the point- you might as well tell people "believe in things you believe". Better to suggest people regularly interrogate their beliefs, or promulgate the notion that beliefs should constantly shift and mutate with knowledge and experience.
(Wow, that really does not look like a real word now that I've typed it so many times.)
posted by oneirodynia at 11:34 AM on July 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Believing in things that are real isn't even necessary. They'll still be real without your participation. You could announce you don't believe in them or announce that you deny their whole existence. You could get a billion people or more to jump up and down with you, saying X isn't real. But it wouldn't change X.
/does religion
posted by emelenjr at 11:35 AM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
/does religion
posted by emelenjr at 11:35 AM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Beliefs should change with experience? That's exactly what I'm saying? And now I'm uptalking apparently?
posted by Scattercat at 11:36 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Scattercat at 11:36 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
>(Wow, that really does not look like a real word now that I've typed it so many times.)
yeah what is this? ted lasso?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:37 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
yeah what is this? ted lasso?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:37 AM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, to be really clear: Uri Gellar is not just a stage magician who never broke character
That seems like the crux of it - over time Geller has been more willing to embrace this image, to back away from really claiming supernatural abilities, so other people have been more willing to treat him that way. That’s not the impression I get of what he was actually about back in the day - he certainly accepted payment from people who seemed to believe that he was a legit psychic - but I wasn’t really around for that, I didn’t experience the, uh, vibe of how seriously he was generally taken, and that’s what makes this kind of revisionism easy.
posted by atoxyl at 11:40 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
That seems like the crux of it - over time Geller has been more willing to embrace this image, to back away from really claiming supernatural abilities, so other people have been more willing to treat him that way. That’s not the impression I get of what he was actually about back in the day - he certainly accepted payment from people who seemed to believe that he was a legit psychic - but I wasn’t really around for that, I didn’t experience the, uh, vibe of how seriously he was generally taken, and that’s what makes this kind of revisionism easy.
posted by atoxyl at 11:40 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
What do other lazy people do about this conundrum?
Not use comment sections (including this one) to dictate how you should feel about certain media outlets.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:41 AM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not use comment sections (including this one) to dictate how you should feel about certain media outlets.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:41 AM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don’t know that he has to be treated as a referendum on supernatural belief in general. It’s clear how he actually did the things he did, because people like Randi went out of their way to demonstrate it. I see little moral defense of using magic tricks to convince people that you are psychic, so you can sell psychic services. It’s almost orthogonal to, say, critiques of mainstream religion because that’s not really what “respectable” religion does. It’s what faith healer sort of people do, maybe, but they are scumbags also. The strongest defense of Geller would be that people didn’t really believe that he was psychic - but I do not think that is true.
posted by atoxyl at 11:49 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 11:49 AM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
> They'll still be real without your participation. You could announce you don't believe in them or announce that you deny their whole existence.
i think this affirms the existence of things-in-themselves, rather than just things as they exist through interactions with other things, or alternately/equivalently we can only know things as we perceive them. getting around the problems this results in this can be a little tricky, because definitionally we don't have access to things except insofar as we perceive them, so what on earth is a "thing in itself" anyway. i think this is the sense in which kant uses the term noumenon? anyway, the sense in which things are real outside of the interpretive framework of beliefs/nonbeliefs used to assess them as they present themselves to us is a kind of vitiated ghostly existence, because (again definitionally) the thing-in-itself is something whose existence we're radically cut off from.
(the whole parmenidean monism shtick is, for whatever it's worth, for me just the most reasonable-seeming way to affirm the existence of some noumenon, because i like having something noumenal around. it really brightens up a reality, kind of holds the room together)
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:58 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
i think this affirms the existence of things-in-themselves, rather than just things as they exist through interactions with other things, or alternately/equivalently we can only know things as we perceive them. getting around the problems this results in this can be a little tricky, because definitionally we don't have access to things except insofar as we perceive them, so what on earth is a "thing in itself" anyway. i think this is the sense in which kant uses the term noumenon? anyway, the sense in which things are real outside of the interpretive framework of beliefs/nonbeliefs used to assess them as they present themselves to us is a kind of vitiated ghostly existence, because (again definitionally) the thing-in-itself is something whose existence we're radically cut off from.
(the whole parmenidean monism shtick is, for whatever it's worth, for me just the most reasonable-seeming way to affirm the existence of some noumenon, because i like having something noumenal around. it really brightens up a reality, kind of holds the room together)
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:58 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Someone is gonna have to slam a table in a second.
posted by Scattercat at 12:00 PM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Scattercat at 12:00 PM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
wait, a table as it presents itself to us or a table as a thing in itself?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:03 PM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:03 PM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
bombastic lowercase pronouncements, we hardly have to invent astrology, though, it's actually like, umm really really old? and ummm i would stay away from astronaut only zones but i can't because i'm already there because i'm the one thing without center or circumference that fills all without any gaps because absence is impossible so umm yeah
posted by overglow at 12:06 PM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by overglow at 12:06 PM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tableaux qua tableaux is not a basis for a system of being-in-the world. It's une mille plateaux all the way down. I'm thrown.
let us jest, before the interest on our witticisms comes due.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:16 PM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
let us jest, before the interest on our witticisms comes due.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:16 PM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
> i can't because i'm already there because i'm the one thing without center or circumference
selfhood is an aspect other than existence. because a you that was the one would possess both existence and selfhood, it would no longer be undifferentiated — a contradiction
anyway. i can't ever be good with certain types of randomness, even though i'm a pretty huge fan of other types of randomness. the problem with astrology as i see it is that it randomly selects a set of fixed attributes based on a series of die rolls carried out once and then never again (i.e. it's sort of like everything's derived from a seed based on hashing information about date, time, and place of birth) and so every event after that roll is predictably pseudorandom — a fixed story, with undertones of double predestination. i wish i knew a good term for this type of one-and-done randomness.
the good stuff (tarot, the lottery described in that one borges story) involves continual injections of new randomness in order to destabilize attempts at constructing a life story that's too cohesive to match what appears to be shared intersubjective reality. though as good parmenideans we know that everything in the perceptible world is part of the "way of opinion" rather than the "way of truth."
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:23 PM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
selfhood is an aspect other than existence. because a you that was the one would possess both existence and selfhood, it would no longer be undifferentiated — a contradiction
anyway. i can't ever be good with certain types of randomness, even though i'm a pretty huge fan of other types of randomness. the problem with astrology as i see it is that it randomly selects a set of fixed attributes based on a series of die rolls carried out once and then never again (i.e. it's sort of like everything's derived from a seed based on hashing information about date, time, and place of birth) and so every event after that roll is predictably pseudorandom — a fixed story, with undertones of double predestination. i wish i knew a good term for this type of one-and-done randomness.
the good stuff (tarot, the lottery described in that one borges story) involves continual injections of new randomness in order to destabilize attempts at constructing a life story that's too cohesive to match what appears to be shared intersubjective reality. though as good parmenideans we know that everything in the perceptible world is part of the "way of opinion" rather than the "way of truth."
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:23 PM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
also and unrelatedly is it fair to say that right now we're overthinking a plate of being
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:33 PM on July 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:33 PM on July 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
oh okay i think i've got it and it's almost, like, relevant. anyway, a useful position to consider: don't hate woo. hate scams. dear children of the moon, sun, earth and of planets yet unexplored: stop doing scams! they ruin fuckin' everything! sincerely, me.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:48 PM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:48 PM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's all just one thing without center or circumference that fills all without any gaps because absence is impossible scamming itself
posted by jason_steakums at 1:04 PM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 1:04 PM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
For a while, let's say from the mid 90's until perhaps the mid 10's, it seemed true that people like Rebecca Watson would carry the world into the future. It seemed like religious intolerance — religion itself — was on the wane. It seemed like countries would stop making war. It seemd like the Internet was an unalloyed good.
The reality is that none of that turned out to be true. Those predictions were wrong. The reasoning that led to the predictions was unsound. The belief that motivated the reasoning was unmoored.
It's hard to accept that you were wrong. That you have no special insight into what will happen next. That your ideas might lose, that your team might lose, and that as a result, you might lose most the things that are of importance to you in the world. It's scary, and the fear makes people lash out.
This is a fear that can be captured and amplified. It's a fear that can be shaped, often in the form of a kind of exorcism, in which the Malevolent Other is anathematized in a symbolic ritual of denunciation. For an outsider, these rituals are often hard to understand. Why engage in thoughts and prayers? Why wear a string of garlic? Why blame Uri Geller for the rise of fascism? It seems almost entirely arbitrary.
Arbitrary perhaps, but not meaningless. The exorcism is a social demonstration by which we demonstrate the strength of our faith to one another, and our resolve not to betray that faith. Because the faith helps us see things as they really are. We know spoons don't bend like that. We have special knowledge of how things happen. And one day, we will be vindicated. When every spoon in the world is bent, and nobody can eat soup, they will call upon Uri Geller, and he won't be able to bend them back. That is when they will call upon us, and that is when we will be vindicated. Amen
posted by dmh at 1:10 PM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
The reality is that none of that turned out to be true. Those predictions were wrong. The reasoning that led to the predictions was unsound. The belief that motivated the reasoning was unmoored.
It's hard to accept that you were wrong. That you have no special insight into what will happen next. That your ideas might lose, that your team might lose, and that as a result, you might lose most the things that are of importance to you in the world. It's scary, and the fear makes people lash out.
This is a fear that can be captured and amplified. It's a fear that can be shaped, often in the form of a kind of exorcism, in which the Malevolent Other is anathematized in a symbolic ritual of denunciation. For an outsider, these rituals are often hard to understand. Why engage in thoughts and prayers? Why wear a string of garlic? Why blame Uri Geller for the rise of fascism? It seems almost entirely arbitrary.
Arbitrary perhaps, but not meaningless. The exorcism is a social demonstration by which we demonstrate the strength of our faith to one another, and our resolve not to betray that faith. Because the faith helps us see things as they really are. We know spoons don't bend like that. We have special knowledge of how things happen. And one day, we will be vindicated. When every spoon in the world is bent, and nobody can eat soup, they will call upon Uri Geller, and he won't be able to bend them back. That is when they will call upon us, and that is when we will be vindicated. Amen
posted by dmh at 1:10 PM on July 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
okay "absence is impossibility scamming itself' is a phrase i'm going to use. i'm not sure in what context i'm going to use it in maybe this one is best saved until i finally set up that cult i've been thinking of but i'm going to use it i am definitely going to use it.
oh dang say it out loud the sounds are perfect — like, the only really hard sound is at the start of "scam," so the jarring conceptual transition is matched by a jarring sound. i love it.
where'd i set that vaporizer.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:24 PM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
oh dang say it out loud the sounds are perfect — like, the only really hard sound is at the start of "scam," so the jarring conceptual transition is matched by a jarring sound. i love it.
where'd i set that vaporizer.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:24 PM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was pretty much on Team Skeptic/New Atheist until the Dawkins Elevatorgate thing emboldened the right wingers to take off their masks (which, at the time, I naively didn't know were masks) kind of like Gamergate did with gamer/fandom/etc communities. (And I know skepticism and new atheism aren't the same thing but the Venn diagram overlap is pretty big, at least in my experience).There's a good chance that you know this, but this comment could be read as explaining why you didn't like the article, so I just want to mention that the author Rebecca Watson is exactly the person who said at a conference that you shouldn't follow women into elevators late at night being a creep. I.e. the thing that became Elevatorgate. She alludes to this in the article when she says "I know I was summarily ejected from Richard P. Dawkins’ official skeptic movement". So this is just me saying to the gallery that you don't have to be aligned with New Atheists or whatever to think that Gellar is a bad person who doesn't deserve to have his reputation rehabilitated. You can even be aligned against them!
posted by jomato at 2:00 PM on July 19, 2023 [18 favorites]
There's a good chance that you know this, but this comment could be read as explaining why you didn't like the article, so I just want to mention that the author Rebecca Watson is exactly the person who said at a conference that you shouldn't follow women into elevators late at night being a creep
I'm very much on board with you and I'm glad you pointed that out. I was a regular listener to The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe when it all went down and I have nothing but admiration for Watson, who has spoken up and persevered amidst some incredibly ugly vitriol. I was referring mostly to some of the discussion in this thread (and elsewhere), not the article. I was also attempting to describe how the incident put a damper on my enthusiasm for the movement (just like Gamergate did to whatever goodwill I had for gaming and fandom culture) -- which in turn gave me some space to take a step back and consider whether my own outlook had become a bit too rigid and dogmatic.
There are skeptics out there doing great work. Rebecca Watson is one of them and James Randi was certainly one of them. We're much better off for them and for the skeptical movement as a whole. I just get a bit irked at what I perceive as implications in discussions like this along the lines of "if you get a Tarot reading and find it valuable you're an idiot who might as well be following the likes of Geller and the QAnon shaman over the edge of a cliff."
posted by treepour at 2:37 PM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm very much on board with you and I'm glad you pointed that out. I was a regular listener to The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe when it all went down and I have nothing but admiration for Watson, who has spoken up and persevered amidst some incredibly ugly vitriol. I was referring mostly to some of the discussion in this thread (and elsewhere), not the article. I was also attempting to describe how the incident put a damper on my enthusiasm for the movement (just like Gamergate did to whatever goodwill I had for gaming and fandom culture) -- which in turn gave me some space to take a step back and consider whether my own outlook had become a bit too rigid and dogmatic.
There are skeptics out there doing great work. Rebecca Watson is one of them and James Randi was certainly one of them. We're much better off for them and for the skeptical movement as a whole. I just get a bit irked at what I perceive as implications in discussions like this along the lines of "if you get a Tarot reading and find it valuable you're an idiot who might as well be following the likes of Geller and the QAnon shaman over the edge of a cliff."
posted by treepour at 2:37 PM on July 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
> Elevatorgate
i never describe myself as a skeptic because of how distasteful the ditchkins/harris assholes and their acolytes are and i somehow missed this elevatorgate thing entirely, jesus christ richard dawkins is an asshole. i mean seriously what the hell man, how did you get that way
posted by dis_integration at 3:15 PM on July 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
i never describe myself as a skeptic because of how distasteful the ditchkins/harris assholes and their acolytes are and i somehow missed this elevatorgate thing entirely, jesus christ richard dawkins is an asshole. i mean seriously what the hell man, how did you get that way
posted by dis_integration at 3:15 PM on July 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
> i mean seriously what the hell man, how did you get that way
by falling next-level in love with yourself and your giant man brain that contains a million maxwell's demons that infallibly sort reason from unreason in parallel, which is so sexy that obviously everyone wants to have sex with you at all times no matter what
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 3:44 PM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
by falling next-level in love with yourself and your giant man brain that contains a million maxwell's demons that infallibly sort reason from unreason in parallel, which is so sexy that obviously everyone wants to have sex with you at all times no matter what
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 3:44 PM on July 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
New Atheists bad, therefore atheism incorrect? What’s next, solar power is bad because some solar CEO is an asshole? I mean I know we want 10 billion people devouring the earth because there are some eugenicist racists who don’t, so … I guess I just answered my own question. Sigh. Richard Dawkins doesn’t own skepticism.
Anyway, this was about Uri Geller and scams really. There’s no hard line but I guess for me, the more cash or personal glory you get, the more sus. So like
Crystals are neat = fine
Crystals have magic powers = whatevs
Trying to cure your own sickness with crystals = I guess, dang though
Trying to cure your kid with crystals = wtf
Selling people a bunch of crystals by claiming magic powers = welcome to capitalism!
Convincing people that vaccines are bad, just use crystals = you’re bad
(This goes double for organized religion)
Even as a skeptic, I don’t want to make everyone believe in nothing. If certain beliefs make you happy and don’t hurt anyone else, great. I just don’t like scams, and I don’t like the implication that nothing is real, everyone creates their own truth, science is just another belief … no, just no. We have way too many problems in the world to deal with a Gish Gallop of baloney.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:51 PM on July 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
Anyway, this was about Uri Geller and scams really. There’s no hard line but I guess for me, the more cash or personal glory you get, the more sus. So like
Crystals are neat = fine
Crystals have magic powers = whatevs
Trying to cure your own sickness with crystals = I guess, dang though
Trying to cure your kid with crystals = wtf
Selling people a bunch of crystals by claiming magic powers = welcome to capitalism!
Convincing people that vaccines are bad, just use crystals = you’re bad
(This goes double for organized religion)
Even as a skeptic, I don’t want to make everyone believe in nothing. If certain beliefs make you happy and don’t hurt anyone else, great. I just don’t like scams, and I don’t like the implication that nothing is real, everyone creates their own truth, science is just another belief … no, just no. We have way too many problems in the world to deal with a Gish Gallop of baloney.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:51 PM on July 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
> science is just another belief … no, just no
i mean, it's a methodology. or a set of related methodologies that develop over time and are applied with varying levels of adherence to the methodologies used
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:06 PM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
i mean, it's a methodology. or a set of related methodologies that develop over time and are applied with varying levels of adherence to the methodologies used
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:06 PM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
look i'm just really a stickler i insist that people get the whole "one thing with no center or edge that fills all without gap being featureless and having no property except existence" thing correct since otherwise everything gets irrational pretty fast
I don't know wtf you've been talking about this whole thread. And you've been doing a hole lotta talking. Can you speak in a way that someone with no college can understand?
If we're going to talk about believing in real things, we're going to have to tackle religion. It gets ugly because religion, or witchcraft, or any other supernatural belief, gets very personal very fast. Where it all goes to shit. We live in a world where those lines get drawn in the sand, drive people to attain power, and you'd better fall in line, or you'll end up on the outskirts, or even dead.
As far as I'm concerned, Schmucko had it right upthread. Empiricism is where it's at. I'm all for beliefs. But if you treat your beliefs as truth, without the benefit of being able to put them to the test successfully, you can forget about convincing me. Which makes me a skeptic. And an atheist. With my own beliefs. You can wag your finger at me when I'm telling you for follow my belief. Until then, what I'm asking for is more than your word when you declare yours. Because that's what I would expect to provide should I declare mine.
posted by 2N2222 at 4:41 PM on July 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't know wtf you've been talking about this whole thread. And you've been doing a hole lotta talking. Can you speak in a way that someone with no college can understand?
If we're going to talk about believing in real things, we're going to have to tackle religion. It gets ugly because religion, or witchcraft, or any other supernatural belief, gets very personal very fast. Where it all goes to shit. We live in a world where those lines get drawn in the sand, drive people to attain power, and you'd better fall in line, or you'll end up on the outskirts, or even dead.
As far as I'm concerned, Schmucko had it right upthread. Empiricism is where it's at. I'm all for beliefs. But if you treat your beliefs as truth, without the benefit of being able to put them to the test successfully, you can forget about convincing me. Which makes me a skeptic. And an atheist. With my own beliefs. You can wag your finger at me when I'm telling you for follow my belief. Until then, what I'm asking for is more than your word when you declare yours. Because that's what I would expect to provide should I declare mine.
posted by 2N2222 at 4:41 PM on July 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
caviar2d2: I mean I know we want 10 billion people devouring the earth because there are some eugenicist racists who don’t , so … I guess I just answered my own question.
I think this actually illustrates Watson’s point very well.“10 billion people devouring the earth” is a pro-genocide talking point, popularized by the wildly racist Paul Ehrlich. But because he was a presentable dude, who journalists got along with, his book The Population Bomb was taken seriously, and not roundly decried. Letting frauds and charlatans off the hook leads to people unquestioningly dropping this kind of rhetoric, even in the service of a joke, into conversation. And my heart sinks every time.
For more about the rise of ecofascism in contemporary discourse, here’s a good article by science journalist Adrienne Matei. Excerpt:
posted by Kattullus at 4:57 PM on July 19, 2023 [25 favorites]
I think this actually illustrates Watson’s point very well.“10 billion people devouring the earth” is a pro-genocide talking point, popularized by the wildly racist Paul Ehrlich. But because he was a presentable dude, who journalists got along with, his book The Population Bomb was taken seriously, and not roundly decried. Letting frauds and charlatans off the hook leads to people unquestioningly dropping this kind of rhetoric, even in the service of a joke, into conversation. And my heart sinks every time.
For more about the rise of ecofascism in contemporary discourse, here’s a good article by science journalist Adrienne Matei. Excerpt:
In short, The Population Bomb’s narrative was hysterical, racist, and wrong. The biggest threat to humanity and the environment isn’t population growth — it’s our reliance on extracting and burning fossil fuels. We now know that just 100 investors and state-owned fossil fuel companies are responsible for 70 per cent of the world’s historical greenhouse gas emissions, and that the wealthiest one per cent of the world’s population is responsible for more than double the emissions of the poorest 50 per cent.Anyway, for a fun debunking of The Population Bomb, this podcast episode from If Books Could Kill is characteristically funny and well-researched.
Yet the false belief that overpopulation is the main cause of environmental degradation (also known as Malthusianism, for the British economist Thomas Robert Malthus) persists. Depending on your perspective, it’s either extremely convincing or extremely convenient to the far right, who, as climate denialism has become a harder sell, are instead nurturing the toxic seeds of eco-fascism.
So what is eco-fascism, exactly? To the white supremacist terrorists accused of, in 2019, murdering of 74 people between them in El Paso, Texas, and Christchurch, New Zealand, it was a twisted rationale. “The environment is getting worse by the year,” wrote the El Paso shooter in his manifesto. “Most of y’all are just too stubborn to change your lifestyle. So the next logical step is to decrease the number of people in America using resources.” The Christ- church shooter identified as an eco-fascist worried about climate change, overpopulation, and immigration. “They are the same issue, the environment is being destroyed by overpopulation, we Europeans are one of the groups that are not overpopulating the world,” he wrote. “The invaders are the ones overpopulating the world. Kill the invaders, kill the overpopulation and by doing so save the environment.”
Eco-fascism has been called “the greening of hate” and broadly applies to the use of ecological rationales to justify the harm, subjugation, or exclusion of minorities. It provides a faulty veneer of logic to the idea of an ecological “purge”: a kind of “righteous” environmental genocide in which many must die in climate catastrophe for the planet to rebalance and heal (also known as “lifeboat ethics”). Fascism is an anxious ideology. It flourishes when fear and anger can be misdirected toward a specific enemy who its proponents see as ruining their society, taking their resources, robbing them of their comforts and advantages. Eco-fascism can look like militarized border walls, isolationism, resource hoarding, and enforcing racist policies — such as those rejecting climate migrants or opposing multiculturalism in the name of conservation. It can even subtly manifest in the kind of quips that caught on earlier in the COVID-19 pandemic about humans being “the real virus,” which insinuate that at least some of us ought to be cleared away to “disinfect” the planet.
posted by Kattullus at 4:57 PM on July 19, 2023 [25 favorites]
> I don't know wtf you've been talking about this whole thread. And you've been doing a hole lotta talking. Can you speak in a way that someone with no college can understand?
this evening i'll do a quick writeup, though in the meantime the stanford encyclopedia of philosophy entry on parmenides isn't bad at all.
and like, college schmollege, the point (or one of the points) is that pinning down what it is for something to be rational is super fucking tricky, making your rational/non-rational sorter consistent is going to require embracing some variety of absurdity, and handwaving away the tricky parts (college-educated or no) is a way to end up in a dogmatic position that is very not science and not rooted in anything recognizable as empiricism and it's not a surprise that a bunch of the dudes who were like "lol just use reason science works shut up" in the 1990s ended up going hard weird-right in the 2000s/2010s
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:58 PM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
this evening i'll do a quick writeup, though in the meantime the stanford encyclopedia of philosophy entry on parmenides isn't bad at all.
and like, college schmollege, the point (or one of the points) is that pinning down what it is for something to be rational is super fucking tricky, making your rational/non-rational sorter consistent is going to require embracing some variety of absurdity, and handwaving away the tricky parts (college-educated or no) is a way to end up in a dogmatic position that is very not science and not rooted in anything recognizable as empiricism and it's not a surprise that a bunch of the dudes who were like "lol just use reason science works shut up" in the 1990s ended up going hard weird-right in the 2000s/2010s
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:58 PM on July 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Claiming there is no way to have a usable definition of rationality is absurd. Respectfully, we have so many problems with cultish behavior in our society — and the consequences from that are clear when everyone's air becomes hot and unbreathable — without throwing even more of this vaguely religious nonsense at others. Enough already ffs.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:03 PM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:03 PM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yes, to be really clear: Uri Gellar is not just a stage magician who never broke character.
Exactly. And a further point: He is (was?) infamously litigious. If you said Geller wasn't a stage magician he'd come after you with a million dollar lawsuit. This wasn't an all-in-good-fun joke.
posted by mark k at 7:12 PM on July 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
Exactly. And a further point: He is (was?) infamously litigious. If you said Geller wasn't a stage magician he'd come after you with a million dollar lawsuit. This wasn't an all-in-good-fun joke.
posted by mark k at 7:12 PM on July 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
[aargh, I meant "if you said he wasn't a psychic" he'd come after you. He sued Randi when Randi wrote about him as a stage magician]
posted by mark k at 7:52 PM on July 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by mark k at 7:52 PM on July 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Metafilter discourse of "believing in woo leads right to fascism, we must all be skeptics [and atheists]"Personally I think the woo by itself is a much smaller problem than the fact that the New York Times is still so readily fascinated by charismatic grifters, from Uri Geller to Sam Bankman-Fried to Elizabeth Holmes to Donald Trump. That’s what really leads directly to fascism. I mean, seriously.
posted by mbrubeck at 8:02 PM on July 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
i wish i knew a good term for this type of one-and-done randomness.
I like "four".
posted by flabdablet at 9:54 PM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I like "four".
posted by flabdablet at 9:54 PM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
the problem with that is that you're ascribing a property other than existence to the one thing that exists. the subtle difference between existence as existing and the experience of existence existing means you're not talking about the one anymore.
The problem with that is that you're ascribing a property other than existence - specifically, the property of numerability - ("the one thing") to the experience of existing.
Also, reasoning about anything engages a massive infrastructure of implicit distinction-making in the form of language. The absurdities are rooted in pretending that reasoning can be done without distinctions, not in existence per se. Existence remains directly accessible without reasoning, even in states of consciousness not amenable to making a distinction between existence and experience.
And stop bogarting the vaporizer.
selfhood is an aspect other than existence. because a you that was the one would possess both existence and selfhood, it would no longer be undifferentiated — a contradiction
To the extent that selfhood is a label you put on some part of existence after making a distinction between self and other, I agree with you.
I have no beef with using "self", "me" , "this", "existence", "experience", "the One" and related terms interchangeably to denote directly apprehended existence, in contexts where the self/other distinction is irrelevant. Any such usages will inevitably be to a great extent ambiguous, unsatisfactory and ultimately indefensible, but when attempting to speak of that whereof one cannot, that's par for the course; a vague nod in the direction of the vibe is the best that can be hoped for.
posted by flabdablet at 10:33 PM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
The problem with that is that you're ascribing a property other than existence - specifically, the property of numerability - ("the one thing") to the experience of existing.
Also, reasoning about anything engages a massive infrastructure of implicit distinction-making in the form of language. The absurdities are rooted in pretending that reasoning can be done without distinctions, not in existence per se. Existence remains directly accessible without reasoning, even in states of consciousness not amenable to making a distinction between existence and experience.
And stop bogarting the vaporizer.
selfhood is an aspect other than existence. because a you that was the one would possess both existence and selfhood, it would no longer be undifferentiated — a contradiction
To the extent that selfhood is a label you put on some part of existence after making a distinction between self and other, I agree with you.
I have no beef with using "self", "me" , "this", "existence", "experience", "the One" and related terms interchangeably to denote directly apprehended existence, in contexts where the self/other distinction is irrelevant. Any such usages will inevitably be to a great extent ambiguous, unsatisfactory and ultimately indefensible, but when attempting to speak of that whereof one cannot, that's par for the course; a vague nod in the direction of the vibe is the best that can be hoped for.
posted by flabdablet at 10:33 PM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've found the greatest argument against solipsism to be that there seems to be more than one person here on Metafilter pushing that nonsense.
Personally, I'm a believer in alipsism: that there really is only one person in existence, and that person is someone other than me.
At the very least, they've been shaped by the experience. For them it's very real and, for at least the time that I'm talking to them, I try to bracket the question of belief and just listen to their stories.
Yeah, it seems to me that sometimes (often?) skeptics go about addressing things in a rather poor way. For example, I don't believe in ghosts. If someone and says to me, "I saw a ghost", I could say, "No, you didn't." The trouble is, for me it sounds like denying the existence of the phenomenon: there are no ghosts. But to them, it sounds like denying their own experience: you did not have the experience of seeing a ghost. And that is really mansplainy (dogwhistly?).
posted by Pyrogenesis at 12:54 AM on July 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Personally, I'm a believer in alipsism: that there really is only one person in existence, and that person is someone other than me.
At the very least, they've been shaped by the experience. For them it's very real and, for at least the time that I'm talking to them, I try to bracket the question of belief and just listen to their stories.
Yeah, it seems to me that sometimes (often?) skeptics go about addressing things in a rather poor way. For example, I don't believe in ghosts. If someone and says to me, "I saw a ghost", I could say, "No, you didn't." The trouble is, for me it sounds like denying the existence of the phenomenon: there are no ghosts. But to them, it sounds like denying their own experience: you did not have the experience of seeing a ghost. And that is really mansplainy (dogwhistly?).
posted by Pyrogenesis at 12:54 AM on July 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
I usually say that I fully believe they perceived a ghost, but that it was most likely one of the usual physical phenomena that produce such experiences. Like I said in the aliens thread, UAPs are indeed real, in that people saw or technology recorded an anomalous event. It doesn't help much, but I try to emphasize that their perception was real and the experience or meaning was present for them, even if the event was not what they thought.
posted by Scattercat at 3:26 AM on July 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Scattercat at 3:26 AM on July 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Does anyone have a good link showing how Gellers water detecting trick was supposed to work?
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:02 AM on July 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:02 AM on July 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
What do other lazy people do about this conundrum
Skip reading NYT for a week (that's an easy lazy thing, right?) You probably won't miss it.
At the very least, try going without a paper that supported Trump extensively. There they lost their last shred of credibility with me.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:10 AM on July 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Skip reading NYT for a week (that's an easy lazy thing, right?) You probably won't miss it.
At the very least, try going without a paper that supported Trump extensively. There they lost their last shred of credibility with me.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:10 AM on July 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Does anyone have a good link showing how Gellers water detecting trick was supposed to work?
Geller dowsed? dowsing doesn’t work, to be clear, however it is the case that if you dig under most places there’s a decent chance you’ll find water. dowsers may also pay attention to subtle environmental clues that indicate a patch of ground with more lush vegetation than another, a sign of moisture, etc. but for the most part they just rely on people not noticing every time they don’t find water and instead noticing the times they (by chance) do find it
posted by dis_integration at 5:12 AM on July 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
Geller dowsed? dowsing doesn’t work, to be clear, however it is the case that if you dig under most places there’s a decent chance you’ll find water. dowsers may also pay attention to subtle environmental clues that indicate a patch of ground with more lush vegetation than another, a sign of moisture, etc. but for the most part they just rely on people not noticing every time they don’t find water and instead noticing the times they (by chance) do find it
posted by dis_integration at 5:12 AM on July 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
I didn't mean how he was claiming it was supposed to work. I meant what the trick was that he was trying to do that had been foiled by Randi / the carson show providing the props.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:11 AM on July 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:11 AM on July 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thirty seconds of googling will reveal he wrote a book on the topic: Learn to Dowse.
Uri Geller is famous around the world for his intuitive, paranormal powers, which range from bending spoons to astounding feats of dowsing, such as his location of huge offshore oil field on behalf of Mexico’s national oil company (for which he was rewarded with Mexican citizenship).
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:05 AM on July 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Uri Geller is famous around the world for his intuitive, paranormal powers, which range from bending spoons to astounding feats of dowsing, such as his location of huge offshore oil field on behalf of Mexico’s national oil company (for which he was rewarded with Mexican citizenship).
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:05 AM on July 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
alipsism: that there really is only one person in existence, and that person is someone other than me.
This strikes me as largely indistinguishable from monotheism.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:44 AM on July 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
This strikes me as largely indistinguishable from monotheism.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:44 AM on July 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
what the trick was that he was trying to do that had been foiled by Randi / the carson show providing the props
That was spoons he claimed to be able to bend, not water he claimed to be able to dowse.
Unforgettable Uri Geller Appearance | Carson Tonight Show (Johnny Carson, YouTube, 20m15s)
Randi on Geller:
James Randi DESTROYS Psychic Uri Geller - Part 1 (Chodmunch, YouTube, 11m21s)
James Randi DESTROYS Psychic Uri Geller - Part 2 (Chodmunch, YouTube, 11m20s)
These two are an exception to the usual rule about any video with DESTROYS in the title being a complete waste of your time.
Randi in general:
James Randi - Investigating Pseudoscientific and Paranormal Claims (Barry Belmont, YouTube, 56m44s)
posted by flabdablet at 4:43 PM on July 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
That was spoons he claimed to be able to bend, not water he claimed to be able to dowse.
Unforgettable Uri Geller Appearance | Carson Tonight Show (Johnny Carson, YouTube, 20m15s)
Randi on Geller:
James Randi DESTROYS Psychic Uri Geller - Part 1 (Chodmunch, YouTube, 11m21s)
James Randi DESTROYS Psychic Uri Geller - Part 2 (Chodmunch, YouTube, 11m20s)
These two are an exception to the usual rule about any video with DESTROYS in the title being a complete waste of your time.
Randi in general:
James Randi - Investigating Pseudoscientific and Paranormal Claims (Barry Belmont, YouTube, 56m44s)
posted by flabdablet at 4:43 PM on July 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
If I ever visit Tel Aviv I plan on visiting this museum as the whole things seems bananas. I love bananas!
posted by josher71 at 10:05 AM on July 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by josher71 at 10:05 AM on July 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
…astounding feats of dowsing, such as his location of huge offshore oil field on behalf of Mexico’s national oil company (for which he was rewarded with Mexican citizenship).
That was mighty generous of him to share his prodigious abilities for such a reward. Or maybe he just really, really wanted Mexican citizenship.
posted by TedW at 11:32 AM on July 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
That was mighty generous of him to share his prodigious abilities for such a reward. Or maybe he just really, really wanted Mexican citizenship.
posted by TedW at 11:32 AM on July 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
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Beliefs have real consequences. It's better to believe in things that are real.
posted by Scattercat at 2:04 AM on July 19, 2023 [27 favorites]