I'd just want to escape and keep wearing that.
December 21, 2014 10:44 AM Subscribe
He didn't explain that Jabba wants to see her naked...
Yeahhhh...Explaining "wants to see her naked" to a 5-year-old is not a minefield any Dad wants to wander into.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:58 AM on December 21, 2014 [34 favorites]
Yeahhhh...Explaining "wants to see her naked" to a 5-year-old is not a minefield any Dad wants to wander into.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:58 AM on December 21, 2014 [34 favorites]
Seriously guys I know you've been warned before but really don't read any of the YT comments. Really really really.
posted by Dmenet at 10:58 AM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Dmenet at 10:58 AM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
Yeahhhh...Explaining "wants to see her naked" to a 5-year-old is not a minefield any Dad wants to wander into.
Which makes this all kind of useless. Now that kid just thinks it's fun to be undressed for the pleasure of a blubbering slob and he's nice to dress her up pretty.
posted by discopolo at 11:01 AM on December 21, 2014 [8 favorites]
Which makes this all kind of useless. Now that kid just thinks it's fun to be undressed for the pleasure of a blubbering slob and he's nice to dress her up pretty.
posted by discopolo at 11:01 AM on December 21, 2014 [8 favorites]
I'm old enough that I saw the first Star Wars in the theater when I was 6 years old.
Later on, I never fetishized Princess Leia in her "slave girl" outfit. I also remember liking the Ewoks.
But I have to say that Star Wars is just so bland and boring. Guardians of the Galaxy is really what a kids' movie ought to be.
posted by Nevin at 11:06 AM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
Later on, I never fetishized Princess Leia in her "slave girl" outfit. I also remember liking the Ewoks.
But I have to say that Star Wars is just so bland and boring. Guardians of the Galaxy is really what a kids' movie ought to be.
posted by Nevin at 11:06 AM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
What? Star Wars is great. Too much cultural saturation but the original films themselves hold up really well.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:10 AM on December 21, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:10 AM on December 21, 2014 [9 favorites]
That is a very clever and urbane five year old. I wish my kid was like that. Maybe that dad would consider a trade if I threw in a couple of cats.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:15 AM on December 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:15 AM on December 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
Behind-the-Scenes photo of Carrie Fisher in her Leia slave outfit at the beach.
posted by Auden at 11:15 AM on December 21, 2014 [13 favorites]
posted by Auden at 11:15 AM on December 21, 2014 [13 favorites]
Seems like a great opportunity to discuss the notion of agency was missed, in focusing on the (mere) association of the appearance with being a slave (which the kid seems to tease apart in her suggestion to run away with it). Does the dad think the outfit would still be demeaning if she was wearing it by choice, rather than by coercion?
posted by kilo hertz at 11:16 AM on December 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by kilo hertz at 11:16 AM on December 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm old enough that I saw the first Star Wars in the theater when I was 6 years old.
Later on, I never fetishized Princess Leia in her "slave girl" outfit. I also remember liking the Ewoks.
I'm close to your age and I certainly had a huge little-boy crush on Princess Leia. I don't think I'd call it "fetishization," but I found her very compelling, especially in the metal bikini.
I also thought the Ewoks were great, and ignored the political stuff in the movies completely, just enjoying the action and basic story; it's interesting how much we focus on that one scene rather than all the other problematic elements in the movies.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:19 AM on December 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
Later on, I never fetishized Princess Leia in her "slave girl" outfit. I also remember liking the Ewoks.
I'm close to your age and I certainly had a huge little-boy crush on Princess Leia. I don't think I'd call it "fetishization," but I found her very compelling, especially in the metal bikini.
I also thought the Ewoks were great, and ignored the political stuff in the movies completely, just enjoying the action and basic story; it's interesting how much we focus on that one scene rather than all the other problematic elements in the movies.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:19 AM on December 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
Kids just are who they are. The more you tighten your grip, the more they will slip through your fingers.
posted by SPrintF at 11:22 AM on December 21, 2014 [27 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 11:22 AM on December 21, 2014 [27 favorites]
Ewok Bikini Slaves would be a great band name.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:24 AM on December 21, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:24 AM on December 21, 2014 [6 favorites]
Her insouciant joie de vivre must be crushed. Thankfully Metafilter is on the job.
posted by perhapsolutely at 11:33 AM on December 21, 2014 [64 favorites]
posted by perhapsolutely at 11:33 AM on December 21, 2014 [64 favorites]
This video has been shared all over Facebook as "listen to this cute kid". And she is cute and, as a kid, blameless. But it seemed really creepy to me. Not just the sexualization. But also the part at the end saying "I would just be rescued". Part of what's fun about the Slave Leia scenes is how much agency Leia has: she helps rescue herself. It makes me sad to hear the little girl speak passively there.
I dunno, I don't spend much time around little girls and have no kids of my own. Am I overthinking this?
posted by Nelson at 11:39 AM on December 21, 2014 [11 favorites]
I dunno, I don't spend much time around little girls and have no kids of my own. Am I overthinking this?
posted by Nelson at 11:39 AM on December 21, 2014 [11 favorites]
I love the idea of Jabba as a thoughtful sartorialist. Like dude just tried to dress ladies in haute couture on a backward planet and all he got for it was sand, people shooting at him, a shitty house band and more sand. I bet Jabba The Sartorialist dreamt of making it big on Coruscant.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 11:43 AM on December 21, 2014 [54 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 11:43 AM on December 21, 2014 [54 favorites]
I dunno, I don't spend much time around little girls and have no kids of my own. Am I overthinking this?
She's five dude. Five year olds kinda expect to get rescued.
posted by fshgrl at 11:48 AM on December 21, 2014 [31 favorites]
She's five dude. Five year olds kinda expect to get rescued.
posted by fshgrl at 11:48 AM on December 21, 2014 [31 favorites]
Behind-The-Scenes photo
I, um. I, uh...what? Oh yeah, I remember why I liked that scene so much. Whew.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:51 AM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
I, um. I, uh...what? Oh yeah, I remember why I liked that scene so much. Whew.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:51 AM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
People who don't have small kids often expect them to be solemn, wise and untouched by cynicism in the way that kids in feel-good movies are.
Real kids are the exact opposite - cruel, inconsiderate and self-centred to an extent that would seem sociopathic in an adult. And I say that as a dad who loves his kids.
posted by pipeski at 11:55 AM on December 21, 2014 [57 favorites]
Real kids are the exact opposite - cruel, inconsiderate and self-centred to an extent that would seem sociopathic in an adult. And I say that as a dad who loves his kids.
posted by pipeski at 11:55 AM on December 21, 2014 [57 favorites]
Is there any sort of pill that will give my kids English accents? They would be able to get away with so much if they just sounded like this.
posted by bibliowench at 11:58 AM on December 21, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by bibliowench at 11:58 AM on December 21, 2014 [11 favorites]
I can't really tell from just the video but it doesn't seem like they're having a super rehearsed conversation or anything, so what the father is saying to his daughter is kind of made up on the fly. I mean, sure, we can talk about Leia's agency and whether Leia wants to dress the way she does or whether she can rescue herself or whatnot, and I totally believe that if I was a super awesome parent I would be completely ready to say exactly the right things that would make my daughter understand the implications of slavery and sexual expression and objectification and whatnot.
I'm pretty sure that in actual fact, I would be the kind of parent who, without any advanced preparation, knows what kind of message he wants to give to his daughter but not necessarily the right way to say it so that it answers her question properly. My extremely limited experience with children suggests I am bad at thinking on my feet around them, which they like sometimes because it makes me look like a doofusface but you know.
Also, +1 to the pill that gives little kids adorable British accents.
posted by chrominance at 12:12 PM on December 21, 2014 [6 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that in actual fact, I would be the kind of parent who, without any advanced preparation, knows what kind of message he wants to give to his daughter but not necessarily the right way to say it so that it answers her question properly. My extremely limited experience with children suggests I am bad at thinking on my feet around them, which they like sometimes because it makes me look like a doofusface but you know.
Also, +1 to the pill that gives little kids adorable British accents.
posted by chrominance at 12:12 PM on December 21, 2014 [6 favorites]
Metafilter: Am I overthinking this?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:12 PM on December 21, 2014 [20 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:12 PM on December 21, 2014 [20 favorites]
I, um. I, uh...what? Oh yeah, I remember why I liked that scene so much. Whew.
Meh. You want a good behind the scenes photo, you get the stunt double involved for a little Tunisian sunbathing.
I wonder if the thought ever crossed either of their minds that even decades later, you'd be able to find people wearing this costume at conventions not just in pairs but by the several dozens.
posted by radwolf76 at 12:15 PM on December 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
Meh. You want a good behind the scenes photo, you get the stunt double involved for a little Tunisian sunbathing.
I wonder if the thought ever crossed either of their minds that even decades later, you'd be able to find people wearing this costume at conventions not just in pairs but by the several dozens.
posted by radwolf76 at 12:15 PM on December 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
It's not a little disconcerting that such a charming, willful, intelligent 5 year old girl, in describing Leia's slave outfit, doesn't use the word pulchritudinous. Standards are degrading
posted by Auden at 12:17 PM on December 21, 2014 [12 favorites]
posted by Auden at 12:17 PM on December 21, 2014 [12 favorites]
He didn't explain that Jabba wants to see her naked...
Yeahhhh...Explaining "wants to see her naked" to a 5-year-old is not a minefield any Dad wants to wander into.
Jabba is a giant space slug. Speaking as realistically as you can on the topic, I don't think there's a sexual angle in it for him.
posted by cosmic.osmo at 12:18 PM on December 21, 2014 [6 favorites]
Yeahhhh...Explaining "wants to see her naked" to a 5-year-old is not a minefield any Dad wants to wander into.
Jabba is a giant space slug. Speaking as realistically as you can on the topic, I don't think there's a sexual angle in it for him.
posted by cosmic.osmo at 12:18 PM on December 21, 2014 [6 favorites]
The dad (Adam) is famous for Star Wars things like this in The Adam and Joe Show back in the late 90s.
posted by BinaryApe at 12:20 PM on December 21, 2014
posted by BinaryApe at 12:20 PM on December 21, 2014
That was fantastic. I've never even seen these movies but whatever bikini she's wearing, the joke is always on the giant gangster space slug.
posted by colie at 12:30 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by colie at 12:30 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yikes. What are you guys doing to your kids?
So many things. Perpetuating the hegemony is just the beginning . . .
posted by bibliowench at 12:33 PM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
So many things. Perpetuating the hegemony is just the beginning . . .
posted by bibliowench at 12:33 PM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
I never fetishized Princess Leia in her "slave girl" outfit.
Me neither. It wasn't until I heard an interview a couple of years ago with Carrie Fisher talking about her life and her experiences with addiction and mental illness that I realized what an interesting and funny person she is. The Jabba/slave girl scene was cool in it's own silly way - "giant alien blob knows how to push Earthlings' sexual fantasy buttons!" - but Fisher is way more entertaining in her own right. [/heresy]
posted by sneebler at 12:34 PM on December 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
Me neither. It wasn't until I heard an interview a couple of years ago with Carrie Fisher talking about her life and her experiences with addiction and mental illness that I realized what an interesting and funny person she is. The Jabba/slave girl scene was cool in it's own silly way - "giant alien blob knows how to push Earthlings' sexual fantasy buttons!" - but Fisher is way more entertaining in her own right. [/heresy]
posted by sneebler at 12:34 PM on December 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
It wasn't until I heard an interview a couple of years ago with Carrie Fisher talking about her life and her experiences with addiction and mental illness that I realized what an interesting and funny person she is.
Her audiobook "Wishful Drinking" (which she narrates - I'd recommend it instead of the book) - is terrific and very interesting. She's great... and also the subject of one of my favorite Paul Simon songs, "Hearts and Bones" (as well as others, as her book makes clear)
posted by Auden at 12:51 PM on December 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
Her audiobook "Wishful Drinking" (which she narrates - I'd recommend it instead of the book) - is terrific and very interesting. She's great... and also the subject of one of my favorite Paul Simon songs, "Hearts and Bones" (as well as others, as her book makes clear)
posted by Auden at 12:51 PM on December 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
Jabba is a giant space slug. Speaking as realistically as you can on the topic, I don't think there's a sexual angle in it for him.
I read stuff online I shouldn't have and Jabba is disgusting. I won't be able to unread it so I'm giving you all a chance to read it or not read it by googling "Jabba" and "slave girl."
Obese space slugs aren't asexual. Not when they dress women up like that.
posted by discopolo at 12:53 PM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
I read stuff online I shouldn't have and Jabba is disgusting. I won't be able to unread it so I'm giving you all a chance to read it or not read it by googling "Jabba" and "slave girl."
Obese space slugs aren't asexual. Not when they dress women up like that.
posted by discopolo at 12:53 PM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
I don't think I'd call it "fetishization," but I found her very compelling, especially in the metal bikini.
I remember finding it very odd - I mean, I was like 12 or 13 when ROTJ came out, so yes, there was a a compelling thing there - but the rest of the films in general very much avoid sex. Fisher has her famous quote about there being "no jiggling in the Empire" and while there was the flirting with Han and Leia in the second film, it was a very chaste/romantic kind of thing.
So the bikini bit did and still does strike me as very out of place in the movie because the overt sexualization of any of the characters had really, really been avoided to that point - and then, boom - Leia in a revealing outfit for a few minutes, and then that's gone and it never happens again.
posted by nubs at 1:00 PM on December 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
I remember finding it very odd - I mean, I was like 12 or 13 when ROTJ came out, so yes, there was a a compelling thing there - but the rest of the films in general very much avoid sex. Fisher has her famous quote about there being "no jiggling in the Empire" and while there was the flirting with Han and Leia in the second film, it was a very chaste/romantic kind of thing.
So the bikini bit did and still does strike me as very out of place in the movie because the overt sexualization of any of the characters had really, really been avoided to that point - and then, boom - Leia in a revealing outfit for a few minutes, and then that's gone and it never happens again.
posted by nubs at 1:00 PM on December 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
The more pressing issue here is that people are still indoctrinating their children on Star Wars. Please, let it die.
They shall join me and we shall rule the galaxy together!
posted by Artw at 1:07 PM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
They shall join me and we shall rule the galaxy together!
posted by Artw at 1:07 PM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
I watched this earlier today. My first thought was "Why didn't Adam say something like 'Jabba made her wear something she didn't want to wear, would you like it if someone dressed you up in something you didn't want to wear?'" And then, duh, it hit me that five-year-olds occasionally have to wear things they don't want to wear, like nice dress-up clothes that preclude running around getting muddy, and giving them reasons to say no just makes the whole process more troublesome in the end.
posted by infinitewindow at 1:09 PM on December 21, 2014 [13 favorites]
posted by infinitewindow at 1:09 PM on December 21, 2014 [13 favorites]
Jabba is a giant space slug. Speaking as realistically as you can on the topic, I don't think there's a sexual angle in it for him.
IIRC he likes "dancing".
posted by Artw at 1:10 PM on December 21, 2014
IIRC he likes "dancing".
posted by Artw at 1:10 PM on December 21, 2014
I read stuff online I shouldn't have and Jabba is disgusting. I won't be able to unread it so I'm giving you all a chance to read it or not read it by googling "Jabba" and "slave girl."
NOPE
NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE
t(ಠ●ಠt) ~no
*throws internet into the toilet flushes toilet blows up house runs away to live in the forest*
posted by louche mustachio at 1:23 PM on December 21, 2014 [14 favorites]
Start with
"nobody should force you wear things you don't want to"
move on to
"nobody should force you to do things you don't want to"
finish with
"perpetuating the hegemony"
stick the landing*.
*"destroy the patriarchy"
You may want to throw in "Lucas is Satan" depending on your daughter's Jar-Jar exposure levels.
posted by fullerine at 1:54 PM on December 21, 2014 [7 favorites]
"nobody should force you wear things you don't want to"
move on to
"nobody should force you to do things you don't want to"
finish with
"perpetuating the hegemony"
stick the landing*.
*"destroy the patriarchy"
You may want to throw in "Lucas is Satan" depending on your daughter's Jar-Jar exposure levels.
posted by fullerine at 1:54 PM on December 21, 2014 [7 favorites]
I have a 4-year-old, a 9-year-old, and an 11-year-old, and I believe it would be a total abdication of parental duty and responsibility to say something irresponsible like, "nobody should force you to do things you don't want to."
posted by Mister_A at 2:06 PM on December 21, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 2:06 PM on December 21, 2014 [11 favorites]
Real kids are the exact opposite - cruel, inconsiderate and self-centred to an extent that would seem sociopathic in an adult.
This is so, so true. Playing outside with my 5 yr old niece. She climbed into the back of the pickup and wanted me to join her. I was lazy and didn't want to clamber up into the Ford so I told her: "I'm not getting up there. It's full of snakes!" She acts frightened of the pretend snakes, so I reassure her by saying "Don't worry. If you sing them a lullaby, they'll go to sleep and they won't bite you." So she starts singing: "Go to sleep, little snake, go to sleeeeep little snaaake" and then the next sound is her stomping around and then very sweetly saying "You can come up now. They're all dead."
posted by honestcoyote at 2:11 PM on December 21, 2014 [52 favorites]
This is so, so true. Playing outside with my 5 yr old niece. She climbed into the back of the pickup and wanted me to join her. I was lazy and didn't want to clamber up into the Ford so I told her: "I'm not getting up there. It's full of snakes!" She acts frightened of the pretend snakes, so I reassure her by saying "Don't worry. If you sing them a lullaby, they'll go to sleep and they won't bite you." So she starts singing: "Go to sleep, little snake, go to sleeeeep little snaaake" and then the next sound is her stomping around and then very sweetly saying "You can come up now. They're all dead."
posted by honestcoyote at 2:11 PM on December 21, 2014 [52 favorites]
"I have a 4-year-old, a 9-year-old, and an 11-year-old, and I believe it would be a total abdication of parental duty and responsibility to say something irresponsible like, 'nobody should force you to do things you don't want to.'"
I originally wrote a snarky response but, really, I think you ought to reconsider the implications of this statement with regard to strange adults wanting kids to do questionable things and then decide if you really want to jump on this bandwagon of "talking to kids about bad men is woo-woo stupid mefite bullshit that undermines adult authority".
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:24 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
I originally wrote a snarky response but, really, I think you ought to reconsider the implications of this statement with regard to strange adults wanting kids to do questionable things and then decide if you really want to jump on this bandwagon of "talking to kids about bad men is woo-woo stupid mefite bullshit that undermines adult authority".
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:24 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Ivan I believe that was a joke.
Leia in her bikini is a quote of every second pulp sci fi cover where the ALEENZ want ARE WIMINZ to do nameless but terrible things with, because Lucas was a pastiche artist.
Given the implicit audience (adolescent boys) you could reasonably deconstruct it as a fear of adult sexuality, with the alien in place of the id.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:30 PM on December 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
Leia in her bikini is a quote of every second pulp sci fi cover where the ALEENZ want ARE WIMINZ to do nameless but terrible things with, because Lucas was a pastiche artist.
Given the implicit audience (adolescent boys) you could reasonably deconstruct it as a fear of adult sexuality, with the alien in place of the id.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:30 PM on December 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
Ivan Fyodorovich: "I originally wrote a snarky response but, really, I think you ought to reconsider the implications of this statement with regard to strange adults wanting kids to do questionable things and then decide if you really want to jump on this bandwagon of "talking to kids about bad men is woo-woo stupid mefite bullshit that undermines adult authority"."
I think you ought to reconsider the implications of this statement with regard to parents wanting kids to stop doing dangerous or horrible things and then decide if you really want to jump on this bandwagon of "small children should just make up all their own rules and completely ignore adults".
posted by Bugbread at 3:26 PM on December 21, 2014 [7 favorites]
I think you ought to reconsider the implications of this statement with regard to parents wanting kids to stop doing dangerous or horrible things and then decide if you really want to jump on this bandwagon of "small children should just make up all their own rules and completely ignore adults".
posted by Bugbread at 3:26 PM on December 21, 2014 [7 favorites]
...or, less snarkily, Mister_A said:
"I believe it would be a total abdication of parental duty and responsibility to say something irresponsible like, "nobody should force you to do things you don't want to."
Emphasis on "nobody".
He didn't say "I believe it would be a total abdication of parental duty and responsibility to say something irresponsible like, "strangers should force you to do things you don't want to."
Also, emphasis on "you don't want to do".
He didn't say "I believe it would be a total abdication of parental duty and responsibility to say something irresponsible like, "nobody should force you to do things which are physically or emotionally dangerous, to yourself or to others."
posted by Bugbread at 3:30 PM on December 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
"I believe it would be a total abdication of parental duty and responsibility to say something irresponsible like, "nobody should force you to do things you don't want to."
Emphasis on "nobody".
He didn't say "I believe it would be a total abdication of parental duty and responsibility to say something irresponsible like, "strangers should force you to do things you don't want to."
Also, emphasis on "you don't want to do".
He didn't say "I believe it would be a total abdication of parental duty and responsibility to say something irresponsible like, "nobody should force you to do things which are physically or emotionally dangerous, to yourself or to others."
posted by Bugbread at 3:30 PM on December 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
You all know that Jabba The Hutt's tongue dispenses sun tan cream, right? He just wants Leia to have a nice tan.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:36 PM on December 21, 2014
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:36 PM on December 21, 2014
Jabba is a hermaphrodite that will chew his own penis off after sex right? Tell me at least that part that my dad told me is still true.
posted by srboisvert at 3:37 PM on December 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 3:37 PM on December 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
"I think you ought to reconsider the implications of this statement with regard to parents wanting kids to stop doing dangerous or horrible things and then decide if you really want to jump on this bandwagon of 'small children should just make up all their own rules and completely ignore adults'."
I'm not the person(s) who jumped from the idea of talking to a child about the problems with this Star Wars scene to "nobody should force you to do things you don't want to." That was a bad-faith strawman of what is, in fact, a perfectly reasonable position -- that there are problems with the scene and it's not a huge parenting mistake to talk with the child about them.
If it's okay for him to strawman someone else's argument, it's okay for me to strawman his and say that he's saying that children should do whatever any adult tells them to do. Which is stupid, that's not a position he really would argue. But, similarly, no one who's suggested talking to the kid about the problems with Jabba and Leia has argued that kids shouldn't do what parents/adults tell them, either.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:15 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm not the person(s) who jumped from the idea of talking to a child about the problems with this Star Wars scene to "nobody should force you to do things you don't want to." That was a bad-faith strawman of what is, in fact, a perfectly reasonable position -- that there are problems with the scene and it's not a huge parenting mistake to talk with the child about them.
If it's okay for him to strawman someone else's argument, it's okay for me to strawman his and say that he's saying that children should do whatever any adult tells them to do. Which is stupid, that's not a position he really would argue. But, similarly, no one who's suggested talking to the kid about the problems with Jabba and Leia has argued that kids shouldn't do what parents/adults tell them, either.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:15 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
a little Tunisian sunbathing
Must've been some interesting tan lines.
/derailery
posted by datawrangler at 4:18 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Must've been some interesting tan lines.
/derailery
posted by datawrangler at 4:18 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
a little Tunisian sunbathing
Must've been some interesting tan lines.
You'll have to ask Boba Fett about that.
posted by homunculus at 4:50 PM on December 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
Must've been some interesting tan lines.
You'll have to ask Boba Fett about that.
posted by homunculus at 4:50 PM on December 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
Ivan Fyodorovich: "I'm not the person(s) who jumped from the idea of talking to a child about the problems with this Star Wars scene to "nobody should force you to do things you don't want to.""
Neither am I, and neither is Mister_A. Fullerine jumped the idea. Mister_A's comment was a counterargument against the person who jumped the idea.
posted by Bugbread at 4:51 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Neither am I, and neither is Mister_A. Fullerine jumped the idea. Mister_A's comment was a counterargument against the person who jumped the idea.
posted by Bugbread at 4:51 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
In the interests of Metafilter harmony I'll ask my young daughter to adjudicate on whether it's good advice just as soon she sobers up.
posted by fullerine at 5:04 PM on December 21, 2014 [18 favorites]
posted by fullerine at 5:04 PM on December 21, 2014 [18 favorites]
Yeah let's don't take things too seriously. I didn't mean it too seriously. I mean, it's true, but I was being a little hyperbolic in response to a hyperbolic statement. All just rhetoric IMO. You are all good people in my book.
posted by Mister_A at 5:21 PM on December 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 5:21 PM on December 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
you get the stunt double involved for a little Tunisian sunbathing.
[morbo] THAT PART OF JEDI WAS FILMED NEAR YUMA ARIZONA! [/morbo]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:21 PM on December 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
[morbo] THAT PART OF JEDI WAS FILMED NEAR YUMA ARIZONA! [/morbo]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:21 PM on December 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
You can get a Brazilian wax near Yuma, Arizona too. But it's really a Tatooine tan; double the tan lines.
posted by Nelson at 5:57 PM on December 21, 2014
posted by Nelson at 5:57 PM on December 21, 2014
Ugh. I'm really familiar with 5 year olds, as a former K teacher.
I agree that this was a missed opportunity to talk about being forced to cross boundaries. It's not about an outfit, even if this young girl has already imbibed concepts like "this is a good look for her."
This scene, in the film, is about capture and coercion and exploitation for the pleasure of a controlling male presence that in no way would Leia ever seek to please on her own terms.
Not dealing with that really is neglect of certain parental responsibilities. Speaking as someone who saw Empire at age 11, there are very real parallels between Leia's sudden entrapment and characterization as a purely sexual being and the ways in which sexual predators seek to entrap and characterize girls and young women.
Am I overthinking it? I doubt it, or no one would remember this scene. It's highly charged not just because Leia looks great - Fisher looked great and she could wear anything and look great - but because of the context of the scene. Nope, this wasn't what Leia wanted to wear. The viewer knows that immediately! Her tastes clearly ran to long white robes and badass rogue-soldier outfits. Those who remember this scene remember it well because it was startlingly out of character for her. That's because this dress and behavior wasn't in her character. It wasn't her choice.
What's really sad about working with 5 year olds who have had the good fortune to never be overly sexualized, or molested, is that they have a joy and freedom in their own bodies that few of them will retain even ten years on. It's wonderful that young girls can look at bikinis, princess outfits, spandex bodysuits, etc., and think, in complete simplicity, that looks awesome! And they do think that. The trouble happens when they get older and understand that they cannot possibly control the multiple and often ill-intentioned readings the rest of society will give them if and when they wear those outfits. Their direct and simple joy about sartorial choices will morph into the general wariness of most women who understand that no choice about clothing is unmarked for them once they are seen as sexual beings. A 5-year-old girl could love and enjoy wearing this freeing, uncumbersome outfit, while being blissfully unaware of the inappropriate and intrusive readings those who watched her might be assigning. I'm sorry, for her, that her simple joy isn't something the world can sustain.
This was a missed opportunity to say "Leia didn't want to wear this." and explore that idea as others have suggested. Because if there's one lesson I want girls to know when they're 3, 4 and 5 as well as when they're 13, 14 and 15 and beyond, it's that some people are going to want you to dress in ways and behave in ways that don't feel right for you , in that moment, and if you decide you want to resist and ask for help because it doesn't feel right, then I [your dad, mom, whoever] here for you.
Because guess what? It happens. Jabbas are real.
posted by Miko at 8:33 PM on December 21, 2014 [20 favorites]
I agree that this was a missed opportunity to talk about being forced to cross boundaries. It's not about an outfit, even if this young girl has already imbibed concepts like "this is a good look for her."
This scene, in the film, is about capture and coercion and exploitation for the pleasure of a controlling male presence that in no way would Leia ever seek to please on her own terms.
Not dealing with that really is neglect of certain parental responsibilities. Speaking as someone who saw Empire at age 11, there are very real parallels between Leia's sudden entrapment and characterization as a purely sexual being and the ways in which sexual predators seek to entrap and characterize girls and young women.
Am I overthinking it? I doubt it, or no one would remember this scene. It's highly charged not just because Leia looks great - Fisher looked great and she could wear anything and look great - but because of the context of the scene. Nope, this wasn't what Leia wanted to wear. The viewer knows that immediately! Her tastes clearly ran to long white robes and badass rogue-soldier outfits. Those who remember this scene remember it well because it was startlingly out of character for her. That's because this dress and behavior wasn't in her character. It wasn't her choice.
What's really sad about working with 5 year olds who have had the good fortune to never be overly sexualized, or molested, is that they have a joy and freedom in their own bodies that few of them will retain even ten years on. It's wonderful that young girls can look at bikinis, princess outfits, spandex bodysuits, etc., and think, in complete simplicity, that looks awesome! And they do think that. The trouble happens when they get older and understand that they cannot possibly control the multiple and often ill-intentioned readings the rest of society will give them if and when they wear those outfits. Their direct and simple joy about sartorial choices will morph into the general wariness of most women who understand that no choice about clothing is unmarked for them once they are seen as sexual beings. A 5-year-old girl could love and enjoy wearing this freeing, uncumbersome outfit, while being blissfully unaware of the inappropriate and intrusive readings those who watched her might be assigning. I'm sorry, for her, that her simple joy isn't something the world can sustain.
This was a missed opportunity to say "Leia didn't want to wear this." and explore that idea as others have suggested. Because if there's one lesson I want girls to know when they're 3, 4 and 5 as well as when they're 13, 14 and 15 and beyond, it's that some people are going to want you to dress in ways and behave in ways that don't feel right for you , in that moment, and if you decide you want to resist and ask for help because it doesn't feel right, then I [your dad, mom, whoever] here for you.
Because guess what? It happens. Jabbas are real.
posted by Miko at 8:33 PM on December 21, 2014 [20 favorites]
Behind-the-Scenes photo of Carrie Fisher in her Leia slave outfit at the beach.
OUCH. All I can see is how poorly that supports her boobs. Jabba, if you're gonna dress your slave girls in sexy metal bikinis, at least do everyone a favor by making sure they fit.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:43 PM on December 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
OUCH. All I can see is how poorly that supports her boobs. Jabba, if you're gonna dress your slave girls in sexy metal bikinis, at least do everyone a favor by making sure they fit.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:43 PM on December 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
Miko: "This was a missed opportunity to say "Leia didn't want to wear this." and explore that idea as others have suggested."
So you're saying that he should have told her that the clothing was "demeaning" or perhaps "embarrassing" or that it was "not really very nice to make a woman dress up like that", something like that?
Yeah, it would be cool if someone linked to a video of good dad like that, instead of this asshole who is "neglecting certain parental responsibilities".
posted by Bugbread at 8:47 PM on December 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
So you're saying that he should have told her that the clothing was "demeaning" or perhaps "embarrassing" or that it was "not really very nice to make a woman dress up like that", something like that?
Yeah, it would be cool if someone linked to a video of good dad like that, instead of this asshole who is "neglecting certain parental responsibilities".
posted by Bugbread at 8:47 PM on December 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
So you're saying that he should have told her that the clothing was "demeaning" or perhaps "embarrassing" or that it was "not really very nice to make a woman dress up like that", something like that?
I'll deal with your question earnestly. In my ideal world, no, I don't think the dad should have passed judgment on the clothing itself. It's not unreasonable for the girl, or anyone else, to dislike the clothing. the clothing, in and of itself, is not bad or evil and women who freely choose to wear that clothing are not bad or evil, not necessarily opting to be demeaned.
Instead, I would wish the dad had discussed the context surrounding her wearing that clothing. It wasn't Leia's choice. It wasn't what she normally wears or likes to wear in public, as we can see when in so many other scenes she is a free and empowered individual who chooses her own clothing, and she doesn't wear that outfit. She's got that outfit on in the Jabba scene because she's literally being coerced. The problem is not the design and nature of the clothing - it's the coercion. It's understanding that it's one thing to wear something you love - even if it's revealing - when it's your choice and you're 100% comfortable with the context and you're consensually enjoying the context and the clothing.
It's entirely another thing when your captor - whether physical, psychological, or emotional - has made the choice of what you will wear for you, and is enjoying your appearance in ways you have not personally agreed to.And "consensually" implies you can understand some of the emotional and sexual valence of that clothing. Which a 5-year-old, simply, can't.
In short, don't talk about the outfit, talk about the context.
posted by Miko at 8:58 PM on December 21, 2014 [11 favorites]
I'll deal with your question earnestly. In my ideal world, no, I don't think the dad should have passed judgment on the clothing itself. It's not unreasonable for the girl, or anyone else, to dislike the clothing. the clothing, in and of itself, is not bad or evil and women who freely choose to wear that clothing are not bad or evil, not necessarily opting to be demeaned.
Instead, I would wish the dad had discussed the context surrounding her wearing that clothing. It wasn't Leia's choice. It wasn't what she normally wears or likes to wear in public, as we can see when in so many other scenes she is a free and empowered individual who chooses her own clothing, and she doesn't wear that outfit. She's got that outfit on in the Jabba scene because she's literally being coerced. The problem is not the design and nature of the clothing - it's the coercion. It's understanding that it's one thing to wear something you love - even if it's revealing - when it's your choice and you're 100% comfortable with the context and you're consensually enjoying the context and the clothing.
It's entirely another thing when your captor - whether physical, psychological, or emotional - has made the choice of what you will wear for you, and is enjoying your appearance in ways you have not personally agreed to.And "consensually" implies you can understand some of the emotional and sexual valence of that clothing. Which a 5-year-old, simply, can't.
In short, don't talk about the outfit, talk about the context.
posted by Miko at 8:58 PM on December 21, 2014 [11 favorites]
The person who joked about opening up contestation about when children can challenge parents actually points to a good, if subtle, conversation. The nature of a positive parent-child contract is that the parent has the child's best interests at heart. They aren't looking to take advantage of the child's lack of experience, but to allow growth and exploration while preventing undue risk. That is the motivation of a well-intentioned family member, and the only reason children should be encouraged to place trust in a family member.
However, not all adults share that motivation. It's wise for parents to let kids know that. Not all adults have the same protective impulse that a caregiver does for the children in their care. It's healthy for kids to push back against adult authority, to understand that just because someone is older doesn't mean they are always right, or safe, or to be trusted. The bargaining chip parents have is that they actually do have the authority deriving from their love and protection of their children. That's a special form of trust that becomes more and more elective as children grow older. But when adults who don't have that authority seek influence over other people's children, you better believe it's a lot better for the kids when they have been enabled to say, in essence, "who the hell are you to ask me to do that?" and to know there's something seriously wrong with being asked to display, perform, dress, or act in ways that don't feel right to them.
I'm maybe a little triggered here, but I don't really dig teaching kids how to be good victims by always kowtowing to adult authority. A healthy dose of righteous rebellion is a damn good thing to instill early on.
posted by Miko at 9:07 PM on December 21, 2014 [10 favorites]
However, not all adults share that motivation. It's wise for parents to let kids know that. Not all adults have the same protective impulse that a caregiver does for the children in their care. It's healthy for kids to push back against adult authority, to understand that just because someone is older doesn't mean they are always right, or safe, or to be trusted. The bargaining chip parents have is that they actually do have the authority deriving from their love and protection of their children. That's a special form of trust that becomes more and more elective as children grow older. But when adults who don't have that authority seek influence over other people's children, you better believe it's a lot better for the kids when they have been enabled to say, in essence, "who the hell are you to ask me to do that?" and to know there's something seriously wrong with being asked to display, perform, dress, or act in ways that don't feel right to them.
I'm maybe a little triggered here, but I don't really dig teaching kids how to be good victims by always kowtowing to adult authority. A healthy dose of righteous rebellion is a damn good thing to instill early on.
posted by Miko at 9:07 PM on December 21, 2014 [10 favorites]
Miko: "Instead, I would wish the dad had discussed the context surrounding her wearing that clothing. It wasn't Leia's choice"
Why is it you aren't parsing "It's not really very nice to make a woman dress up like that" to mean that? It sounds, to me, that he's saying precisely what you're saying he missed an opportunity to say.
Miko: "However, not all adults share that motivation. It's wise for parents to let kids know that."
Yes, and I would be very, very surprised if he has not let kids know that. I would be very, very surprised if any parent in this thread has not let their kids know that. There's a big difference between warning your kids about predators and "don't do anything anyone tells you to unless you personally want to". That latter one is what people are arguing against.
Miko: "A healthy dose of righteous rebellion is a damn good thing to instill early on."
You don't instill healthy rebellion. It's there from the get-go. It's the natural state of children. What you do is try to do is walk the tightrope of curbing the rebellion, but not too much. That's the hard part. If you don't curb at all, you'll end up with a selfish sociopath who only cares about themselves. All the asshole policemen who ignore the law, all the asshole businessmen who pay to make the laws, all the other assholes that MeFi hates so much, they're in this camp. And you curb too much, you end up with the corporate robot sh33pl3 that MeFi hates so much for giving the other camp so much power. Allowing just the right amount to remain, without pruning too much, is the hard part.
posted by Bugbread at 9:31 PM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
Why is it you aren't parsing "It's not really very nice to make a woman dress up like that" to mean that? It sounds, to me, that he's saying precisely what you're saying he missed an opportunity to say.
Miko: "However, not all adults share that motivation. It's wise for parents to let kids know that."
Yes, and I would be very, very surprised if he has not let kids know that. I would be very, very surprised if any parent in this thread has not let their kids know that. There's a big difference between warning your kids about predators and "don't do anything anyone tells you to unless you personally want to". That latter one is what people are arguing against.
Miko: "A healthy dose of righteous rebellion is a damn good thing to instill early on."
You don't instill healthy rebellion. It's there from the get-go. It's the natural state of children. What you do is try to do is walk the tightrope of curbing the rebellion, but not too much. That's the hard part. If you don't curb at all, you'll end up with a selfish sociopath who only cares about themselves. All the asshole policemen who ignore the law, all the asshole businessmen who pay to make the laws, all the other assholes that MeFi hates so much, they're in this camp. And you curb too much, you end up with the corporate robot sh33pl3 that MeFi hates so much for giving the other camp so much power. Allowing just the right amount to remain, without pruning too much, is the hard part.
posted by Bugbread at 9:31 PM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
In other words, what Miko said times a thousand.
posted by fullerine at 9:34 PM on December 21, 2014
What's better for eye strain caused by excessive rolling - paracetamol or ibuprofen?
posted by obiwanwasabi at 9:41 PM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by obiwanwasabi at 9:41 PM on December 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
Why is it you aren't parsing "It's not really very nice to make a woman dress up like that" to mean that? It sounds, to me, that he's saying precisely what you're saying he missed an opportunity to say.
He's saying something materially different. What is "like that" to you? It sounds like you're judging the aesthetic choice of the dress, rather than the crucial point, which is "make." In other words, force. I don't care what "like that' is - a burka or a bikini.
The rest of your comment I see as a lot of semantic quibbling that otherwise dodges the point that the widespread sharing of this short video clip does not include overt evidence of discussion of the problematics and context surrounding Leia's wearing of this costume.
posted by Miko at 9:42 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
He's saying something materially different. What is "like that" to you? It sounds like you're judging the aesthetic choice of the dress, rather than the crucial point, which is "make." In other words, force. I don't care what "like that' is - a burka or a bikini.
The rest of your comment I see as a lot of semantic quibbling that otherwise dodges the point that the widespread sharing of this short video clip does not include overt evidence of discussion of the problematics and context surrounding Leia's wearing of this costume.
posted by Miko at 9:42 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Bugbread: "You don't instill healthy rebellion. It's there from the get-go. It's the natural state of children."
Well, okay, that, or I am excellent fucking dad, because my kids started out rebellious at age zero.
posted by Bugbread at 9:42 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, okay, that, or I am excellent fucking dad, because my kids started out rebellious at age zero.
posted by Bugbread at 9:42 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Miko: "the point that the widespread sharing of this short video clip does not include overt evidence of discussion of the problematics and context surrounding Leia's wearing of this costume."
Yes, this one minute clip does not contain a ten minute lecture on problematics. He is a monster.
posted by Bugbread at 9:43 PM on December 21, 2014 [6 favorites]
Yes, this one minute clip does not contain a ten minute lecture on problematics. He is a monster.
posted by Bugbread at 9:43 PM on December 21, 2014 [6 favorites]
I don't think "rebellion" is something you set like a radio dial, or something pre-set in human nature. I'd want my kids to be very sensitive and attuned to areas of their personal agency that have to do with their body, their appearance, their power to choose their company and their behavior. I would care less about other forms of rebellion. I don't agree that "rebellion" is some natural childhood state at all. Most children want belonging and acceptance, which makes them such wonderful marks for predators. They also want independence and competence.
Helping them find that line between independence and acceptance is what caring adults do. Helping them understand that enacting someone else's choices for them is neither competence and independence, nor belonging or acceptance, is the most challenging and nuanced part of raising children, and the reason it is so hard to protect them.
posted by Miko at 9:46 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Helping them find that line between independence and acceptance is what caring adults do. Helping them understand that enacting someone else's choices for them is neither competence and independence, nor belonging or acceptance, is the most challenging and nuanced part of raising children, and the reason it is so hard to protect them.
posted by Miko at 9:46 PM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
He is a monster.
Now you're getting hyperbolic. You're aware I never said that he was a "monster." What on earth makes you so very uncomfortable here?
posted by Miko at 9:47 PM on December 21, 2014 [8 favorites]
Now you're getting hyperbolic. You're aware I never said that he was a "monster." What on earth makes you so very uncomfortable here?
posted by Miko at 9:47 PM on December 21, 2014 [8 favorites]
Parenting style vary, but I find I don't get a lot of milage out of telling my kids what I want them to think about something. We talk about it, yes, and we return to subjects as their experiences grow ("You know how your friend Addie has two moms? Well, when I got upset at the tv the other night, it was because someone had just said her moms were the worst people ever."), but part of the conversation is listening to them explain why they hold the viewpoints that they do. What I heard was a father trying to first understand why his daughter would feel this way about the slave outfit. And yes, what he tried to explain didn't work this time, but I can't imagine he didn't return to the conversation later. It's just funnier when you let those little maniacs talk for a bit.
And he didn't do what my husband did when my son used the word "feminist" in a disparaging way at dinner:
Me: Inhale (mentally prepare lecture on history of gender inequality)
Him: (sigh) "ohboy"
Cause that didn't fucking help.
posted by bibliowench at 9:53 PM on December 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
And he didn't do what my husband did when my son used the word "feminist" in a disparaging way at dinner:
Me: Inhale (mentally prepare lecture on history of gender inequality)
Him: (sigh) "ohboy"
Cause that didn't fucking help.
posted by bibliowench at 9:53 PM on December 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
Keep sucking, you'll extract all the joy from this yet.
posted by perhapsolutely at 9:59 PM on December 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by perhapsolutely at 9:59 PM on December 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
Right, I'm not seeing "the joy." At all. As a former 5-year-old girl who found "the joy" constrained by the desires and pressures of others, I'd be interested to know - what is "the joy?" Whose joy is it? And how long will it last?
posted by Miko at 10:06 PM on December 21, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Miko at 10:06 PM on December 21, 2014 [6 favorites]
[I agree, biobliowench, these aren't usually one-time conversations, but since this is being shared as a single clip which seemingly demonstrates....something...to those sharing it, I'm interested in understanding what that something is.]
posted by Miko at 10:12 PM on December 21, 2014
posted by Miko at 10:12 PM on December 21, 2014
Miko: "Now you're getting hyperbolic. You're aware I never said that he was a "monster." What on earth makes you so very uncomfortable here?"
You're right, and I think it's because of the never-ending microaggression litany all parents get that whatever they're doing, they're doing it wrong, and in a big way. Going from saying he missed an opportunity (hey, we all miss stuff, but hopefully we catch it next time around), to saying that he was showing a "neglect of certain parental responsibilities" - missing any opportunity makes you a neglectful parent - it got me hot under the collar. Like in the West Texas explosion article, where not knowing the rule of thumb that "a safe distance to stand away from a fire is far enough that you can cover it with your thumb" is enough to get calls of "borderline child abuse".
So, yeah, probably as a parent the best thing I can do stay the fuck away from any thread involving parents.
posted by Bugbread at 10:14 PM on December 21, 2014 [7 favorites]
You're right, and I think it's because of the never-ending microaggression litany all parents get that whatever they're doing, they're doing it wrong, and in a big way. Going from saying he missed an opportunity (hey, we all miss stuff, but hopefully we catch it next time around), to saying that he was showing a "neglect of certain parental responsibilities" - missing any opportunity makes you a neglectful parent - it got me hot under the collar. Like in the West Texas explosion article, where not knowing the rule of thumb that "a safe distance to stand away from a fire is far enough that you can cover it with your thumb" is enough to get calls of "borderline child abuse".
So, yeah, probably as a parent the best thing I can do stay the fuck away from any thread involving parents.
posted by Bugbread at 10:14 PM on December 21, 2014 [7 favorites]
Keep sucking, you'll extract all the joy from this yet.Hey, Buxton still owes me for the "comedy" songs they stuck in every fucking episode of Adam and Joe.
posted by fullerine at 10:17 PM on December 21, 2014
Yikes. What are you guys doing to your kids?
La pim nallya so bata de wompa.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:23 AM on December 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
La pim nallya so bata de wompa.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:23 AM on December 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
probably as a parent the best thing I can do stay the fuck away from any thread involving parents
Try adopting one some time for extra points. Your child was probably abducted and sold!
posted by Wolof at 1:09 AM on December 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Try adopting one some time for extra points. Your child was probably abducted and sold!
posted by Wolof at 1:09 AM on December 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
this is being shared as a single clip which seemingly demonstrates... something... to those sharing it, I'm interested in understanding what that something is
Take your pick:
- Kids are cute.
- Kids take things at face value.
- Kids are not worldly.
- Kids see things differently to adults.
- Parents find it difficult to know when is a good time to raise complicated, mostly adult issues with very young children.
If I may paraphrase: what on earth makes you so very uncomfortable here? Because you're flogging that 'I'm not saying he's a bad parent but he did everything wrong doesn't he know he's perpetuating a misogynist culture and leaving his daughter open to attacks from pedophiles' horse pretty bloody hard under the guise of giving it a massage.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 1:17 AM on December 22, 2014 [7 favorites]
Take your pick:
- Kids are cute.
- Kids take things at face value.
- Kids are not worldly.
- Kids see things differently to adults.
- Parents find it difficult to know when is a good time to raise complicated, mostly adult issues with very young children.
If I may paraphrase: what on earth makes you so very uncomfortable here? Because you're flogging that 'I'm not saying he's a bad parent but he did everything wrong doesn't he know he's perpetuating a misogynist culture and leaving his daughter open to attacks from pedophiles' horse pretty bloody hard under the guise of giving it a massage.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 1:17 AM on December 22, 2014 [7 favorites]
I'd like to get her opinion on Sy Snootle
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:25 AM on December 22, 2014
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:25 AM on December 22, 2014
"I'm close to your age and I certainly had a huge little-boy crush on Princess Leia."
My first exposure to Star Wars were the action figures and a short version of ROTJ on cassette that came with a small picture book. So I certainly was aware of Slave Bikini Leia, but she couldn't hold a candle to Camo Poncho Leia.
Now, let's not start talking about Masters of the Universe Teela, or it'll get weird.
posted by pseudocode at 2:38 AM on December 22, 2014
My first exposure to Star Wars were the action figures and a short version of ROTJ on cassette that came with a small picture book. So I certainly was aware of Slave Bikini Leia, but she couldn't hold a candle to Camo Poncho Leia.
Now, let's not start talking about Masters of the Universe Teela, or it'll get weird.
posted by pseudocode at 2:38 AM on December 22, 2014
The best bit is when she says 'this is a good look for her'. Little kids need to become fluent in the language of the culture they're born into at the same time as they begin to pick it apart. That's how it's supposed to work.
One of the worst bits of any middle-class childhood is when your parents draw breath and reach for those sentences that start off 'well, some people think this is a bad thing because...'. Kids have either already worked it out or need to be given the space to do so - especially with trashy figures like Jabba who have entered the language and culture so completely.
posted by colie at 4:16 AM on December 22, 2014
One of the worst bits of any middle-class childhood is when your parents draw breath and reach for those sentences that start off 'well, some people think this is a bad thing because...'. Kids have either already worked it out or need to be given the space to do so - especially with trashy figures like Jabba who have entered the language and culture so completely.
posted by colie at 4:16 AM on December 22, 2014
attacks from pedophiles' horse
I had to read that three times before I could parse it correctly. I kept wondering who was this gang of pedophiles who had jointly invested in an attack horse, and where they kept it.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 5:02 AM on December 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
I had to read that three times before I could parse it correctly. I kept wondering who was this gang of pedophiles who had jointly invested in an attack horse, and where they kept it.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 5:02 AM on December 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
while there was the flirting with Han and Leia in the second film, it was a very chaste/romantic kind of thing.
Oh man, watching Han's douchbag harassment of Leia in the second movie with my 14-year-old daughters while the characters and narrative treat it as budding romance was about 20x more uncomfortable than re-watching the slave bikini scene with them. At least Jabba is clearly a villain.
posted by straight at 8:37 AM on December 22, 2014
Oh man, watching Han's douchbag harassment of Leia in the second movie with my 14-year-old daughters while the characters and narrative treat it as budding romance was about 20x more uncomfortable than re-watching the slave bikini scene with them. At least Jabba is clearly a villain.
posted by straight at 8:37 AM on December 22, 2014
If I may paraphrase: what on earth makes you so very uncomfortable here? Because you're flogging that 'I'm not saying he's a bad parent but he did everything wrong doesn't he know he's perpetuating a misogynist culture and leaving his daughter open to attacks from pedophiles' horse pretty bloody hard under the guise of giving it a massage.
What exactly is being massaged on that horse? Shudder.
posted by discopolo at 9:03 AM on December 22, 2014
What exactly is being massaged on that horse? Shudder.
posted by discopolo at 9:03 AM on December 22, 2014
Obese space slugs aren't asexual. Not when they dress women up like that.
Um.
posted by cjorgensen at 9:24 AM on December 22, 2014
Um.
posted by cjorgensen at 9:24 AM on December 22, 2014
To be honest, I thought it was cute that the little girl was commenting on the sartorial choices Jabba was making for Leia and how she recognized that it was, in fact, a really good look on her. The implications about having that outfit chosen for you to wear against your will and all that stuff didn't matter for that little girl. In fact, she says pretty plainly that what she'd want to do, in Leia's place, would be to escape from slavery but keep on wearing that outfit. Because, you know, it's a good look.
I think it's an interesting line, really, between how an outfit can be creepy and an outfit can be empowering, depending on whether the woman has chosen it for herself or had it chosen for her.
I mean, really, if one of the Spice Girls (probably Scary Spice) had chosen to wear a smiler outfit and called it a choice full of grrrl power, that would be something entirely different from havinga space slug a Hutt make you wear it because you were his prisoner. Despite it being essentially the same clothes.
I think the father did an admirable job. He tried to address the situation, found the 5 year old didn't really have the vocabulary to work with to make the explanation clear, tried to find some alternate vocabulary to explain the situation... But the girl, she wasn't interested in social justice issues... she was looking at clothes.
She's 5. There's plenty of time for parenting to help her see deeper layers to how these things play out in real life and to arm her with the skills and knowledge she needs. The door has been opened ("embarrassing and not very nice"), other conversations can follow.
posted by hippybear at 9:58 AM on December 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
I think it's an interesting line, really, between how an outfit can be creepy and an outfit can be empowering, depending on whether the woman has chosen it for herself or had it chosen for her.
I mean, really, if one of the Spice Girls (probably Scary Spice) had chosen to wear a smiler outfit and called it a choice full of grrrl power, that would be something entirely different from having
I think the father did an admirable job. He tried to address the situation, found the 5 year old didn't really have the vocabulary to work with to make the explanation clear, tried to find some alternate vocabulary to explain the situation... But the girl, she wasn't interested in social justice issues... she was looking at clothes.
She's 5. There's plenty of time for parenting to help her see deeper layers to how these things play out in real life and to arm her with the skills and knowledge she needs. The door has been opened ("embarrassing and not very nice"), other conversations can follow.
posted by hippybear at 9:58 AM on December 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
Can we just agree it doesn't much matter whether Jabba dresses human female captives that way because he has actual lascivious desires for them or he just does it because he knows they will feel frightened and humiliated?
posted by straight at 10:01 AM on December 22, 2014
posted by straight at 10:01 AM on December 22, 2014
Can we just agree it doesn't much matter whether Jabba dresses human female captives that way because he has actual lascivious desires for them or he just does it because he knows they will feel frightened and humiliated?
If I was his captive, I know I'd be interested in the answer to that distinction.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:50 AM on December 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
If I was his captive, I know I'd be interested in the answer to that distinction.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:50 AM on December 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
I would just like to interject that, as an adult (not counting my child self the first time around) Leia was the only character I didn't hate by the end of the three movies. ROTJ is a weak movie compared to the other two, but Leia seems to retain most of her wit, edginess, moxie, and magnetism throughout. Other primary characters become lame, clicheed, moronic, etc. Credit Fisher, the writers and the directors.
Leia is a strong character. She's not afraid to love and be vulnerable but she's tough enough to take risks when the stakes are high. She's idealistic and high minded, but she can roll up her sleeves and do necessary dirty business. She can stand face to face to the most feared person in the galaxy (Vader), take out a squad of imperial storm troopers with a blaster, choke the baddest mob boss on Tatooine while clad in a chain mail bikini. She falls and remains in love with a smarmy smuggler who has his own strengths, faults and charms, and she is able to let go of her brother almost as soon as she learns of him, not out of indifference, but a balance of duty, love, and sense.
It kind of pains me when people get hung up on her bikini. She's so much more than that. I liked her as a kid, and I like the character now as an adult.
posted by scelerat at 12:23 PM on December 22, 2014 [4 favorites]
Leia is a strong character. She's not afraid to love and be vulnerable but she's tough enough to take risks when the stakes are high. She's idealistic and high minded, but she can roll up her sleeves and do necessary dirty business. She can stand face to face to the most feared person in the galaxy (Vader), take out a squad of imperial storm troopers with a blaster, choke the baddest mob boss on Tatooine while clad in a chain mail bikini. She falls and remains in love with a smarmy smuggler who has his own strengths, faults and charms, and she is able to let go of her brother almost as soon as she learns of him, not out of indifference, but a balance of duty, love, and sense.
It kind of pains me when people get hung up on her bikini. She's so much more than that. I liked her as a kid, and I like the character now as an adult.
posted by scelerat at 12:23 PM on December 22, 2014 [4 favorites]
Because, you know, it's a good look.
The 5 year old in fact experiments with using the whole phrase 'it's a good look for her', because she intuits that this phrase has many layered meanings beyond the pure conveyance of information that would be 'I think this looks nice'. You can hear obviously that she is experimenting with the most powerful thing that she's had access to in her life: adult language and attitudes, rather than purely voicing her inner desires in some transparent (non-existent) language format.
The phrase contains an understanding and knowing acceptance of fashion/sexiness and the insane demands it puts on women, but with a push back into the mixture of intelligence and wit much like some others have mentioned on this thread about 'lack of support' in the preposterous tiara-bra kind of thing she's wearing.
Kids know all this stuff in some way but struggle to express it. Part of the charm of the video and similar ones is that they are trying to do so and in the process they mix up phrases and ideas from our own fucked up attitudes.
And also the cheerful enthusiasm she shows towards the whole 'looking nice' thing is such a relief to all of us who have had to struggle with that concept as adults for so long.
posted by colie at 12:34 PM on December 22, 2014
The 5 year old in fact experiments with using the whole phrase 'it's a good look for her', because she intuits that this phrase has many layered meanings beyond the pure conveyance of information that would be 'I think this looks nice'. You can hear obviously that she is experimenting with the most powerful thing that she's had access to in her life: adult language and attitudes, rather than purely voicing her inner desires in some transparent (non-existent) language format.
The phrase contains an understanding and knowing acceptance of fashion/sexiness and the insane demands it puts on women, but with a push back into the mixture of intelligence and wit much like some others have mentioned on this thread about 'lack of support' in the preposterous tiara-bra kind of thing she's wearing.
Kids know all this stuff in some way but struggle to express it. Part of the charm of the video and similar ones is that they are trying to do so and in the process they mix up phrases and ideas from our own fucked up attitudes.
And also the cheerful enthusiasm she shows towards the whole 'looking nice' thing is such a relief to all of us who have had to struggle with that concept as adults for so long.
posted by colie at 12:34 PM on December 22, 2014
A person may be blind to, or a complete stranger to joy but why make yourself its enemy? If the extinction of Hope Buxton's capacity for innocent appreciation is as inevitable as many seem to believe, what's the rush?
posted by perhapsolutely at 12:48 PM on December 22, 2014
posted by perhapsolutely at 12:48 PM on December 22, 2014
"A person may be blind to, or a complete stranger to joy but why make yourself its enemy?"
Wow, you just won the hyperbole contest in this thread. And against such strong competitors!
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:40 PM on December 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Wow, you just won the hyperbole contest in this thread. And against such strong competitors!
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:40 PM on December 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
I couldn't agree with these sentiments more. Denunciation and finger pointing have no place on the blue; generalized misgivings and vague handwaviness will have to suffice, per usual. I only mention Hope Buxton by name to point up the dismal irony of her apparent misnomer, doomed as she is to sartorial disillusionment...or not. It's hard to know which is worse.
posted by perhapsolutely at 3:45 PM on December 22, 2014
posted by perhapsolutely at 3:45 PM on December 22, 2014
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